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[BETA] MiG-15 and F-86A-5 (V2, included in HSFX4.1) - Printable Version

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- justin.bronk - 09.11.2009

Yes but don't worry, I've started a reinstall - might have been another mod clashing or something.... Thanks anyway.

Don't Know if this was already mentioned but it's obvious... - Razgriz_37 - 09.11.2009

The F-86A-5, what's up with the lack of rudder trim and that the bomb release button is set to the Rocket release.

Or is there a patch to fix that?

Re: Don't Know if this was already mentioned but it's obviou - Checkyersix - 10.11.2009

Razgriz_37 Wrote:The F-86A-5, what's up with the lack of rudder trim and that the bomb release button is set to the Rocket release.

Ditto. This is a big problem for us offline players. In ground attack the AI charges at the target with guns blazing and drops its bombs at 100 meters, thinking it's firing rockets, only to get caught in the blast and blown to pieces. Granted I don't assign the F-86 to ground attack very often, but this seems like a needless problem.

Cheers,

CY6

- PeterD - 10.11.2009

It should be fixed in the next patch

- Checkyersix - 10.11.2009

PeterD Wrote:It should be fixed in the next patch

Thanks for the reply!

- PeterD - 10.11.2009

Checkyersix Wrote:
PeterD Wrote:It should be fixed in the next patch

Thanks for the reply!
You are welcome! Smile

- Razgriz_37 - 10.11.2009

Thank you Peter D, awesome job by the way, can't wait for the patch, is it to be release as 1.2ish?

I don't know where the modding community is heading.

- fido - 11.11.2009

are you planning on incorporating the new pits from korea pack? I mean just the pits, nothing else, i think your FMs are fine. And what about drop tanks for mig?

Update - Quite Lengthy But Be Patient - Lt.Wolf - 11.11.2009

Update - Quite Lengthy But Be Patient, in response to other posts in another area regarding flaws

Firstly Hello, I have been dying to post this update for some time now, talk of how accurate the FMs are not entirely true due to recent findings, fist note

Super Sonic fighters are fighters that fly in level flight above Mach 1.2, The F-86 us not really a true supersonic fighter, It spends most of its time in transonic flight and cannot reach Mach 1 under its own engine power only in a shallow dive and also easier at higher alts doing the same.

The speed of sound or Mach as you know is different at all altitudes and is measured in TAS, therefore you will appear to reach mach at lower IAS speeds at higher alt. the use of TAS now is important as is the need for a mach gauge. Descriptions of pilot reports can be mirrored in 1:1 human combat.

The original FMs that you guys are flying that have been reported as realistic, at the time of creation they appeared so however, last month I was able to load these aircraft into IL-2 Compare and I noticed straight away the issues. The original FMs were done mainly by Hunin and additional help my self with detail and facts. Testing, pre release FM and other tweaks currently in the FMs Howlin, this was a long time ago to think back and I am certain that each of us had a fair share of work into the original FM (no offense intended at any one mentioned or not mentioned). Since then I have spent many hours in very little days correcting these. I have extensively researched these and have built a very large library of details. The FMs have currently been completely redone by myself with testing by certain friends. My notes on the current FMs and problems are:

o Currently the climb rate of MiG-15Bis is closer to that of a MiG-17 (65m/s), This should be 50m/s based on the earlier 1949 April/July variant, this has been corrected however it is 53.5m/s close enough, I will explain why this compromise later.

o The roll rate of the MiG-15Bis out rolled that of the F-86, this is wrong. The F-86 should roll at 180 deg/s or 2 seconds for a complete roll at all speeds except high speed where it drops to around 3 seconds. The Mig-15 and Bis should roll at 90 degrees a second or roll in 4 seconds, at high speed the MiG-15 would lock up completely however the Bis had boosted ailerons and could manage 6 seconds, the Sabre now out rolls the MiG twice as fast at all speeds, Correct

o The Sabre if rolled continuously for too long (many fast rolls) at low speed will eventually start effects similar to that experienced on the MiG-21 "Auto Rotation", this does not mean it will auto roll, it means it will go into a weird barrel roll where the nose eventually pitches up into the centre causing an easily recoverable flat spin, this was not deliberate but a by product of reaching the limits of FMs which are designed for props, the game has limits with its FM I am not sure it can handle modern complex supersonic fighter flight models, as the performance curve cannot be as accurately defined as say a P-51 Prop, these FMs will do ok with in the current limits, any more and you would have to compromise on areas.

o The Sabre can and does out dive a MiG-15Bis however the MiG-15Bis will out dive the F-86 in an initial dive but the F-86 will accelerate past the MiG and has higher speed tolerance in a dive, it will not brake apart so easily, Correct
o The Sabre A-5 now climbs at its correct climb speed at 38ms, the F-86F-25E (Early Slatted bigger engine) and F-86F-25L (Late with the '6-3' which was retro fitted to earlier models to give it a fixed slat and larger root and wing area) 47m/s

o Power to weight ratio is very important now that you are flying jets just as much as you would think the turn is and climb, it tells you how well you accelerate and recover from a turn fight to gain advantage. The MiG-15Bis is more closer to RL than the late Sabres, it has a Power to Weight Ratio of 0.53 isntead of 0.54. Due to the limits of the FM with jets, (I cannot further discuss publicly). Certain things have had to be increased, such as weight, if I was to add any more weight to the MiG-15Bis it would affect the dive and other natural advantages the Sabre has over the MiG-15Bis.

o The Sabre A-5 has a power to weight ratio that is 37.5 same as real life and is quite accurate in performance

o The F-25 due to similar limitations related to the MiG-15Bis it has been refined and has a slightly higher thrust to weight and correct climb, this does even the odds in the climb much closer.

o The current original MiG-15Bis and Sabre A-5 fly far too fast at all heights, accelerate too well and black out easily. Corrected

o Peter D after a discussion between each other and extensive research on the high transonic speed effects that each plane suffered from, has created some very nice and interesting effects that are close to what the reports have said. The F-86A-5 like the MiG-15 locks up at high speed at high altitude this is due to it having a regular tail, roll was unaffected. The aircraft now loses not all but much control in pitch at high speed and high altitude which resulted in the tactic of USAF pilots dragging MiG pilots 25,000ft and lower, but as you get lower into the thicker air this compressibility is not such an issue and on the deck it is with out issue at all. The MiG-15Bis is much more nimble higher up and the Sabre A-5 can only fight it at low to mid speeds at low to mid heights, correct.

In level powered flight the F-86 will reach supersonic flight especially at higher altitudes. This has since been corrected, The Sabre will only ever reach Mach 1 in a shallow dive and its energy retention will allow it to hold that for longer periods of time. The buffet you experience is the high transonic affects by PeterD, it does not mean you will rip a wing but you can safely fly at mach 1.1 but at 1.2 at sea level you will lose control surfaces, buffet will become much more severe at the point of max speed. The MiG-15Bis will brake apart just above mach but as said below will not be able to achieve near mach in a controlled dive at all.

The F-86F-25E and L have the flying tail or I forget the name, where the elevators can still be operated but the complete horizontal stabilizer can pitch when needed at high speed, this reduces the compressibility issues greatly giving it much better pitch control at high alt and high speed, the aircraft is still no where near as stiff or light as it is at low alt but very stable at all speeds/heights and is highly maneuverable at higher alts.

The MiG-15Bis in real life would not break apart when it hit the sound barrier it can continue diving, however what happens is there is complete loss of roll and pitch control, complete lawn dart,

- Monguse - 11.11.2009

Excellent, well done!

- Guest - 11.11.2009

Well researched and well spoken sir...

- Redcanuck - 11.11.2009

Looks like alot of fun is incoming Big Grin

Very cool 8)

Thanks for the very thorough update.

~S~

- Sneeke - 12.11.2009

Hi Lt.Wolf, thanks for this great explanation! I feel we will have greatest addon since last official made by MG.
And special thank for adding Fresco, especially 'F' version Big Grin
As for the usage of Fresco and some other planes (reactive bombers, intercept Sabere versions) in Korea, I believe both sides won't escalate conflict, especially in 53, where all participants was really tired of polishing 38th parallel region.
And little complain, MiG-17F have more than 700mph (710 or somting like) at 10000ft.
Anyway thanks for great work your team doing!

- Lt.Wolf - 12.11.2009

I was just being rough, The Fresco C does do the 715mph also max dive or absolute max speed of Mach 1.15 (sea level speed or it would break apart much earlier if used Mach speed from 30K)

- SkyHawk - 12.11.2009

any chance of adapting the cockpit for f-86 in the Corea Mod for this sabre?