REAL Aircraft Names! - Printable Version

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- HunInTheSun - 09.12.2007

Yes and why many and many OFFICIAL papers from Messerschmitt AG itself or from Rechlin Testing-Center wrote Me 109 on their papers? hu?

Sturmbock Wrote:Official RLM designation: Bf 109
From: Messerschmitt and Obb. Research institute

RLM: Reichsluftfahrtministerium (Reich Aviation Ministry)

Ah? And what about this:

"The RLM (Reichs Luftfahrt Ministerium, German Air Ministry) distributed a unique number for every aircraft-related product. The first number showed what kind of product it was, 8 for an aircraft, 9 for piston-engines, 109 for jet- and rocket engines. The official designation for the Bf 109 was 8-109, it was the 109th plane on the list. In normal use, the leading 8 was replaced by an abbreviation indicating the manufacturer. Some aircraft got a higher number than entitled on special request of the manufacturers, e.g. the FW 200 Condor. Developments of an aircraft often got a number increased by 100, e.g. Bf 109 (*), Me 209, Me 309....

In the case of the engines, the first digit of the engine number indicates the manufacturer, e.g. 6 for Daimler Benz, 9-601 or DB 601 the most widely used engine of the Bf 109.

(*) In September 1938 the Bayrische Flugzeugwerke was renamed to Messerschmitt. The RLM (Reichs Luftfahrt Ministerium, German Air Ministry) and the Wehrmacht changed the abreviation from 'Bf' to 'Me'. The manufacturer continued using the 'Bf' for aircrafts in production. Since then the 8-109 was built as Bf 109 and used as Me 109."

Here:
http://frhewww.physik.uni-freiburg.de/A ... /desig.htm

:wink:

Bf109 or Me109 are both correct. :wink:

Then,i choose the HISTORICALLY CORRECT "Me" prefix for that bird thanks to Bigmike's mod.

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- Skunkmeister - 09.12.2007

I work in the aviation industry, and the industry standard is to always refer to an aircraft as what is written on the company identification plate.

It is a well known fact in every county that "official goverment documents" are filled with errors.

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- Sturmbock - 09.12.2007

Quote:(*) In September 1938 the Bayrische Flugzeugwerke was renamed to Messerschmitt. The RLM (Reichs Luftfahrt Ministerium, German Air Ministry) and the Wehrmacht changed the abreviation from 'Bf' to 'Me'. The manufacturer continued using the 'Bf' for aircrafts in production. Since then the 8-109 was built as Bf 109 and used as Me 109."

"...Bayerische Flugzeugwerke was reconstituted as Messerschmitt AG on July 11th, 1938, with Willy Messerschmitt as chairman and managing director. The renaming of BFW resulted in the company's RLM designation changing from Bf to Me for all newer designs after the acquisition date. Existing types, such as the Bf 109 and 110, retained their earlier designation in official documents, although it came to overlapping, most often by subcontractors. In practise, all BFW/Messerschmitt aircraft from 108 to 163 (not the same plane as the Me 163) were prefixed Bf, all later types with Me..."

From: Messerschmitt and Obb. Research institute

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- HunInTheSun - 11.12.2007

Skunkmeister Wrote:It is a well known fact in every county that "official goverment documents" are filled with errors.

This sentence is as true as saying that nobody in Germany after 1938 talked/wrote "Me109". :roll:
Look at this HISTORICAL technical document:



Here
http://home.planet.nl/~jan88076/Onderzo ... enpag3.htm


For sure,there isn't Me109 written on it,you see? :lol:



Oh,another source "filled with errors" just for you Sturmbock:

Various myths
It's not Me 109, it is Bf 109, you dork!
Both are correct for the Messerschmitt 109 fighter. Both the factory and the Luftwaffe used both designations throughout the life of the 109. Both Bf 109 and Me 109 appear in "official" documents from a variety of 'official sources, from the production facilities themselves to internal RLM docs. It is wrong to say that 'Me 109' is incorrect or that Bf was terminated during construction of the 108-109-series fighter. These alternative designations didn't stop at the Gustav; many Augsburg documents from the last months of the war still used the Bf prefix. For simplicity, this article usually refers to the plane as Me 109.


Here
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/art ... ths/#myths



Bf and Me prefix are both correct,concerning the 109
And i choose...the "Me" one for the sim. 8)

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- Skunkmeister - 11.12.2007

OK, you stick to your interpretation. I'll stick to mine.

But really, people should always refer to aircraft according to what is stamped on the manufacturers identification plate. Its an aviation industry standard.

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- Sturmbock - 11.12.2007

Quote:Oh,another source "filled with errors" just for you Sturmbock:

Obviously you missed this paragraph:

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- HunInTheSun - 11.12.2007

Yeah Sturmbok...

A re-reading maybe?

Just here

:roll:

Skunkmeister Wrote:OK, you stick to your interpretation. I'll stick to mine.

This isn't "my interpreation".
These are facts,Historical facts that shows both Me & Bf prefix use at every level of construction/conceiving/testing/operational use of this aircraft.

You may not agree,then stick to what you want.That's all. 8)

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- Sturmbock - 11.12.2007

Daimler Benz was a subcontractor. :wink:

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- Skunkmeister - 11.12.2007

That is something that even today is problematic with some aircraft manufacturers. Which is the reason why the standard is to adopt what is stamped on the manufacturers ID plate.

Like I already said, you do what you want, because you are entitled to that. And I'll do what I want, which is to use the aviation industry standard.

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- HunInTheSun - 11.12.2007

Sturmbock Wrote:Daimler Benz was a subcontractor. :wink:

Then,i imagine a pilot or a mechanic on airfield when reading such document with "Me109" written on it:

"Oh god,what dumb guys at the DBenz factory,don't they know we're using Bf109s and not Me109s,Shame on them!"

:lol:

BTW,what about the Mtt papers (see above) among many others that clearly indicates the "Me" prefix?
I can admitt some did "errors" or are subcontractor.But AFAIK,Mtt isn't a subcontractor of itself and the guys which drew those performances curves weren't clumsy enough to begin their performance reports with...an "error".

Skunkmeister Wrote:That is something that even today is problematic with some aircraft manufacturers. Which is the reason why the standard is to adopt what is stamped on the manufacturers ID plate.

Probably.
Personnaly,i appreciate the german "tradition" to give the chief designer's name to a plane family for gratitude,like we saw for the Ta152.
And concerning this awesome aircraft,thanks to the Bigmike tip,i can't resist to replace Bf by Me.

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- Skunkmeister - 11.12.2007

Righto. Then I'll change all the FW190's to Ta190s. I mean, its tradition right? :wink:

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- HunInTheSun - 11.12.2007

Skunkmeister Wrote:Righto. Then I'll change all the FW190's to Ta190s. I mean, its tradition right?

As far as no historical document show such an aircraft designation (ie"Ta190"),then it would be obviously wrong and perfectly uncomparable to the 109 story.

Nice try! :lol:

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- Sturmbock - 11.12.2007

Quote:Then,i imagine a pilot or a mechanic on airfield when reading such document with "Me109" written on it:

"Oh god,what dumb guys at the DBenz factory,don't they know we're using Bf109s and not Me109s,Shame on them!"

Laughing

BTW,what about the Mtt papers (see above) among many others that clearly indicates the "Me" prefix?
I can admitt some did "errors" or are subcontractor.But AFAIK,Mtt isn't a subcontractor of itself and the guys which drew those performances curves weren't clumsy enough to begin their performance reports with...an "error".

"...although it came to overlapping, most often by subcontractors..."

That's all

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- Skunkmeister - 11.12.2007

Just so you know, just because document is "historical" doesnt automatically grant it correctness.

But the Me vs. Bf has been debated for a long time. So like every other debate on the subject, this could turn into a 100 page thread without a viable outcome.

It is interesting to note however that you yourself brought up arguments that would normally be one for the Bf camp and you want to use Me because you "choose to".

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- HunInTheSun - 11.12.2007

Sturmbock Wrote:"...although it came to overlapping, most often by subcontractors..."

That's all

HunInTheSun Wrote:BTW,what about the Mtt papers (see above) among many others that clearly indicates the "Me" prefix?
I can admitt some did "errors" or are subcontractor.But AFAIK,Mtt isn't a subcontractor of itself and the guys which drew those performances curves weren't clumsy enough to begin their performance reports with...an "error".

So,today i learn that Mtt was a subcontractor of itself.Thanks for this relevant info Sturmbok :lol:

Skunkmeister Wrote:Just so you know, just because document is "historical" doesnt automatically grant it correctness.

Yes,true.Some corroborating elements indicate that "Me" prefix were considebrably used at this time,even by on ground personal

[b]Me 109 is known to have been the name used in print by the Luftwaffe propaganda publications as well as by the Messerschmitt company itself after July 1938, and the Luftwaffe personnel, who pronounced it may hundert-neun. The Me 109 (pronounced "emm ee one-oh-nine") designation was usually used in the English-speaking world. However, in both wartime and contemporary literature, both the "Bf" and "Me" prefixes are used, and both are considered valid and accurate

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