The proper way to fight a Mig-15(bis) in an F-86 in IL-2 - Printable Version
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- NathanielGreene - 22.11.2009
Lefty Hartnett Wrote:I solved the problem by switching to the Mig----lol
Cheers to that man.
- RichardH - 22.11.2009
JG14_Jagr Wrote:This is a subject you could write a book about, not just a post. I love the KTO fights.. even better than the ETO. I've read loads of technical data and also lots of pilot accounts which you can garner a lot of information from but you need to take them with a grain of salt because of their subjective nature in most cases.
The F86A5 in IL2 is the earliest version to see action in numbers. The Mig15bis is an improved version of the original Mig15 design. This particular plane set gives you the widest possible performance gaps between the types. The F86E was being introduced when the 15bis was arriving in theater. The key differences in performance are the ceiling and the rate of climb..in that order. The Mig and Sabre had similar engines but the Mig was signifigantly lighter which had obvious advantages in performance. The ceiling and high alt performance of the Mig therefore was superior for this reason. The Migs had the ability to cruise at 10,000 feet above the early Sabres and dictate when to fight at will. Thereforre they could enter at a time and position of their choosing, use a major E advantage to slash through and use that E along with a 30% better climb rate to stay outside of the Sabres envelope of engagement.
As the Sabre was re engined, from the E model through the F model those 2 advantages evened out signifignantly with the F-30 and F-40 versions having a much closer climb rate to the Mig15bis and about the same operational ceiling. This stripped away the massive advantage the early Migs had over the early Sabres in the KTO. As with all AC each had a "sweet spot" altitude where it held a performance edge. Because of the Thrust to Weight advantage of the Mig, generally the higher the better in terms of fighting Sabres, especially ealry versions. At around 30K feet the denser air started to let the Sabres aerodynamic advantages overcome the Migs pure power advantage.
Overall speeds were relatively close..close enough that unless you were in an extended tail chase they were not going to be a deciding factor in a fight. High speed handling performance (especially as the Alt lowered) went to the Sabre..turn rates varied with altitude with each having a slight advantage or being more or less even depending on the height tested. In initial powered dives the Mig had the edge (big engine pushing a lighter body) but the Sabre would catch and then surpass the Mig by a signifigant margin if the dive was extended when weight began to help rather than hurt.
Sabre had a signifigantly better sighting system.. a generation ahead of the Migs. The Migs site system was far less effective in practice.
Weapons. an argument unto itself. The Migs "pod" design made maintenance and service dramatically easier. The 37mm combined with the 2 23mm put out a very high "weight" of fire. The shells travelled along a different ballistic paths despite having similar muzzle velocities. They fired at a relatively slow rate of fire and a relative slow muzlzle velocity. It made accurate targeting of a small maneuvering aircraft very difficult at longer ranges. That being said, the tradeoff is that if you were able to get rounds on target they were very lethal to small aircraft.
The Sabres .50 calibers were the other end of the spectrum, 6 concentrated .50 caliber MG firing at a very high rate of fire and a high muzzle velocity combined with a radar ranging gun sight gave a high hit probability even at signifigant ranges specially for non maneuvering targets. The tradeoff in this case was weight of fire. Against highly mobile target a snap shot was often not sufficent to get lethal damage on target in the brief engagement window. The API ammunition was not as effective at extreme altitudes where oxygen was scarce. Then again, Mig15's had minimal armor and reports I've read of wounded Soviet pilots would indicate that Mig 15 pilots were often incapacitated or killed outright in Migs that were shot down.
Based on my information, when the F86F-30 model is released, there will be relative parity in AC performance with each having slight advantages in various situations, but nothing so glaring that good (or bad) pilot skill cannot compansate for it.
As far as tactics against the Migs in game with the A5, enter with an E advantage if at all possible and when you have an opportunity to put rounds on the Mig15 do not hesitate. If allowed to climb away they will, so fire early and often and if you damage them it will reduce their performance signifigantly. If you don't expect a lot of high side attacks from above after they climb out of reach.
You got it practically right!
The advantages for the USAF pilots, as i see it is the G-Suit which the Mig15 pilots didn't have. A1C-Sperry radar ranging gunsight and overall much more experience regarding the pilots that flew the f86s..
Other than that, the MiG is superior to the F86 in Il2 at least.. In the real world however, it was different, as we all know.
- {HVY-E}Jinxx - 22.11.2009
Gents,
The Mig 15 from Peter, while a beautiful piece of work, is porked. The FM is way off actual data. After talking to my Uncle, he flew Saber's, F4's and F15's, he has stated that the Mig was only SLIGHTLY better in the climb than the F86. The main problem with the F86 was turning and max ceiling. The turning problem was solved with the E model's flying tail and the ceiling was just a factor of weight. The F86 was unable to catch the Mig once it was above 45k ft.
All of your points on the Mig are moot until the FM gets fixed. Testing done by Ace of Aces shows specifically that the in game FM is at least 18% off of real world data.
http://allaircraftsimulations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=261397
Re: make the migs......rookies - Alemart_el_Redentor - 22.11.2009
pilotsden Wrote:what a sim....fantastic what we have here and getting better every day....
pd
AMEN!
Guys i have been fighting on Il-2 both along and against the MiG-15Bis, and i can tell you that it IS very hard to cope with them, specially if you are fighting against them
- ACE-OF-ACES - 22.11.2009
Dixiecapt Wrote:Good, then they are historicly set,Actully no..
viewtopic.php?p=260829#260829
viewtopic.php?t=21367&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90
As the links above shows the ingame MiG15's rate of climb of 60m/s is ~10m/s (1,986ft/min) better than it should be.. Which makes for a very unrealistic match up. The good news is that bug has been identified and should be addressed in the next patch. Once that is done, the MiG15 will still have a better rate of climb than the 86A5, as it should be, but it wont be as big of an advantage as it currently is.