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P51 Mustang - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: P51 Mustang (/showthread.php?tid=69429)

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- Kwiatek - 16.04.2010

Nope you understand wrong - that guy is RL pilot who flew P-51 and he prefer P-51 FM from UP as a more close to RL plane Smile

.... and i made new FM's for P-51D in UP not him.

- Axial - 17.04.2010

Yeah, I don't fancy the UP (or HSFX or stock, for that matter) P-51D series that much, especially the 20 and 30NA (including F-51D). The 25NA handles better than those two for some odd reason. Having said that, the P-51B handles even better (many thanks for including a revised one in UP2.01!), even better than the C. It accelerates faster, stalls less, and maintains energy more so than the D models. I can catch a 190 A-6 in a straight dive with the P-51B but not in the D without difficulty...something is wrong there. The better handling I find very odd considering the D model has the vertical stabiliser fillet, which was meant to fix the tendency for snap-rolling.

What I'd like to see in future Mustang updates though are not more typical 'Stang revisions...what I need are the A-36 Apache/Invader and the 20mm Hispano-equipped P-51As/Mustang Mk. Is. Those planes are built and armed for my type of combat: medium to low altitude fighting travelling at ~400 mph.

- Kwiatek - 17.04.2010

Dorsal fillet was add to P-51 D due to directional stability problems after change canopy from P-51 B/C type and cut rear fuselage.

P-51B was little better in stability and hanlding then P-51D and has less take off weight. P-51 B was also faster and better climber at the same engine settings.

Add to P-51 D new ones - 20NT, 25 and 30 - they used the same FM characteristic and just have difference in engines settings:

- P-51 20NT - +67 Hg

- P-51 D-25 - +72 Hg

- P-51 D-30 - +75 Hg

Thats why D-30 is the fastes P-51D.

- Kwiatek - 17.04.2010

And here is great film for P-51 lovers:

http://www.asb.tv/videos/view.php?v=1bf99434&br=500


I like they way how it fly smooth in the air Smile

- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010

Kwiatek Wrote:Nope you understand wrong - that guy is RL pilot who flew P-51 and he prefer P-51 FM from UP as a more close to RL plane Smile
So you are one of 'those' guys who threw down a grand to fly a T-51D (the T noting that it was a two seater) that has the guns and ammo removed from the wings thus affecting the total weight and moment of inertain and the gun ports covered thus affecting the drag and the WWII radio replaced by the 2nd seat and modern radio installed somwhere else thus affecting the total weight and moment of inertain and the controls modified such that a send set of controls were added to the 2nd seat and lets not forget that it is most likly had the Packard Merlin replaced with a Allison as most modern restoration Mustangs have done and if not that the super charger removed in both case.. All in all which results in a plane that is nothing like the orginaly configured P-51D mustang.. So your 'that' guy? Tongue

Kwiatek Wrote:.... and i made new FM's for P-51D in UP not him.
So you are 'the' guy that took the P-51D (20NT 25 and 30 ) FM from HSFX and tweaked it a little and put it into UltraPack 2.0 and called it your own?

Or am I missing something here?

Are there two Kwiateks?

- Kwiatek - 17.04.2010

You are quite hard understanding guy.


Im the one who are making new FM's for UP.


I just quoted opinion another RL pilot who flew P-51. Yes not the war equipment version of these plane but still it was P-51. And really i appreciate 100% more opinion a guy who is RL pilot (with a few thousand hours in the air) and flew P-51 that the best armchair pilots.


For your know i didn't tuning HSFX P-51 FM's - i have myself ones which i made even some time before and it was based on Olegs M. P-51 FM. I just made many needed corrections for these plane based on RL charts, manual and RL pilot opinion as you see.


Moreover your old performacne comparsion between older UP P-51 D version and HSFX is not accurate. YOu made these test with early UP version where performacne of these planes was adjusted for Crimea Map - so there were difference between Crimea and Smolensk - it was corrected very soon. So till these time performacne of P-51 and any other new FM's planes in UP is based on Smolensk Map according to stock ones planes. Thats why your comparison is wrong for UP planes.

Just for claryfications some facts.

- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010

Kwiatek Wrote:You are quite hard understanding guy.


Im the one who are making new FM's for UP.


I just quoted opinion another RL pilot who flew P-51.
Yes it is hard to understand when you make a post under your name and quote someone but don't point out that your quoting someone

Kwiatek Wrote:Yes not the war equipment version of these plane but still it was P-51.
Correction

T-51

Kwiatek Wrote:And really i appreciate 100% more opinion a guy who is RL pilot (with a few thousand hours in the air) and flew P-51 that the best armchair pilots.
Well don't feel bad

There are alot of people who look at pilots as some sort of all knowing gods

But the fact remains they taught 19 and 20 year old kids to fly these planes back in WWII thus there is not god requirment

Kwiatek Wrote:For your know i didn't tuning HSFX P-51 FM's - i have myself ones which i made even some time before and it was based on Olegs M. P-51 FM.
So you never even looked at the orginal HSFX FMs?

Well that would sort of explane why the UP2.0 version were less accurate than the HSFX4.1 versions

Kwiatek Wrote:I just made many needed corrections for these plane based on RL charts, manual and RL pilot opinion as you see.
Charts that you never provided
Opinions that you never provided

Such that others can see if your interptation of said charts and opinions were correct

Kwiatek Wrote:Moreover your old performacne comparsion between older UP P-51 D version and HSFX is not accurate. YOu made these test with early UP version where performacne of these planes was adjusted for Crimea Map - so there were difference between Crimea and Smolensk - it was corrected very soon. So till these time performacne of P-51 and any other new FM's planes in UP is based on Smolensk Map according to stock ones planes. Thats why your comparison is wrong for UP planes.
Not wrong

I did it on purpose

To show how the UP1.8 P51s changed in UP2.0 P51s to become more like the orginal HSFX4.1 P51s

In that time line wise

It was at the time of UP1.8 that a post showed up over at the UltraPack forum stating that UltraPack HAD MORE REALISTIC P51 FLIGHT MODELS

Yet on closer inspection it turned out that they were NOT more accurate

Thus I am not suprised to see that you changed them from 1.8 to 2.0 such that they are now more like the orginal HSFX 4.1 FMs that you claim to have never looked at

Kwiatek Wrote:Just for claryfications some facts.
Just for claryfication of the claryfication with the real facts

- Kwiatek - 17.04.2010

HSFX FM has nothinhg to do here for UP P-51 FM's. They are different. IF you will know code values you would see many differences in it.

I made FM for P-51 many time before even HSFX relase. I just dont have new slots for it. My FM's are based on stock ones P-51 which were modificated to more accurate level and with new standart which have all new UP FM's. HSFX is made more in Oleg. M. standart which is wrong in some ways.

The samy way i made and have corrected FM for P-47 with fixed many issues of these plane. Yet we dont put it in UP beacuse i prefer to send it for offical team and i hope we will get in in offical 4.10 patch. I dont like too much idea to have the same plane with many slots with different FM's when it is possible to correct it in offical way for all.

Thats why we dont create another P-51D version but just put our FM's into new added planes for keep our FM standart for new planes.


Nothing more to say. Belive what you want.

- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010

Kwiatek Wrote:HSFX FM has nothinhg to do here for UP P-51 FM's. They are different. IF you will know code values you would see many differences in it.

I made FM for P-51 many time before even HSFX relase. I just dont have new slots for it. My FM's are based on stock ones P-51 which were modificated to more accurate level and with new standart which have all new UP FM's. HSFX is made more in Oleg. M. standart which is wrong in some ways.

The samy way i made and have corrected FM for P-47 with fixed many issues of these plane. Yet we dont put it in UP beacuse i prefer to send it for offical team and i hope we will get in in offical 4.10 patch. I dont like too much idea to have the same plane with many slots with different FM's when it is possible to correct it in offical way for all.

Thats why we dont create another P-51D version but just put our FM's into new added planes for keep our FM standart for new planes.


Nothing more to say. Belive what you want.
All I can belive is what I see

And I see the UP1.8 P51 FMs changed in UP2.0 to something closer to the orginal HSFX4.1 values

That is why I belive the way I belive

What I don't see if you providing the reference and opinioins you claim to have

And an attitude from you that we don't need to see them and that we should just trust you

Sorry

That might work over at UltraPack

But not here

- Axial - 17.04.2010

Kwiatek Wrote:Dorsal fillet was add to P-51 D due to directional stability problems after change canopy from P-51 B/C type and cut rear fuselage.

P-51B was little better in stability and hanlding then P-51D and has less take off weight. P-51 B was also faster and better climber at the same engine settings.

Add to P-51 D new ones - 20NT, 25 and 30 - they used the same FM characteristic and just have difference in engines settings:

- P-51 20NT - +67 Hg

- P-51 D-25 - +72 Hg

- P-51 D-30 - +75 Hg

Thats why D-30 is the fastes P-51D.

From what I've read in the past, that's the popular belief but it's not entirely true. The B and C models had stability problems, too, so the bubble canopy is not the reason they added the dorsal fillet. It may have slightly exacerbated it, but the problem was there on the earlier models nonetheless.

I have no doubt that the three D models in UP have the same FM characteristics...it just seems to me from my experience flying them that the 25NA handles better than the other two. Though I must confess I don't see any differences in the speed characteristics of any of them when in combat...I guess I'm making too many manoeuvres for that to matter at all.

Kwiatek, would you happen to know if the A-36 and/or P51A are in the pipeline for a UP update in the near future?

- Kwiatek - 17.04.2010

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:And I see the UP1.8 P51 FMs changed in UP2.0 to something closer to the orginal HSFX4.1 values

That is why I belive the way I belive


As i said before in 1.8 UP version all new FM's are made in Crimea Map and were adjusted to these map not the Smolensk. So there were difference in performacne the same plane in both map. So new UP planes were ajdusted to RL charts in Crimea Map. It caused that in Smolensk Map the same planes were just too slow and have worse climb rate. So it was affect not only new P-51 but all new planes in UP with new FM's.

IN UP 2.0 all these planes were adjusted for Smolensk Map and their performacne issue was fixes. IL2 Compare for stock planes is also based on Smolensk map. So now is accurate to comparison stock and new ones at the same map.

Your old test with P-51 was made with 1.8 UP. And thats why your test is not accurate and wrong for any UP 2.0 version.

So you claim that UP P-51 FM are wrong is not true.

You could check it byself in UP 2.01 and compare it with RL data for P-51.

- Axial - 17.04.2010

Bump for above question...

- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010

Hey I thought you said

Kwiatek Wrote:Nothing more to say. Belive what you want.

I must have hit a nerve?

Eitherway it is good to see that you have more to say and you do care about what I belive

Kwiatek Wrote:As i said before in 1.8 UP version all new FM's are made in Crimea Map and were adjusted to these map not the Smolensk. So there were difference in performacne the same plane in both map. So new UP planes were ajdusted to RL charts in Crimea Map. It caused that in Smolensk Map the same planes were just too slow and have worse climb rate. So it was affect not only new P-51 but all new planes in UP with new FM's. IN UP 2.0 all these planes were adjusted for Smolensk Map and their performacne issue was fixes. IL2 Compare for stock planes is also based on Smolensk map. So now is accurate to comparison stock and new ones at the same map.
The point your MISSING here is at the time of UP1.8

With those errors you mentioned still in place

A thread was started at the UltraPack site claiming to have the more accurate P51 flight models

I really don't care what the reasons for the errors in were UP1.8

The point is you and yours were claiming UP1.8 P51s were more accurate than the HSFX4.1 P51s

All in all I am glad you guys found your errors and made changes in UP2.0 to make the P51 flight models more like the orginal HSFX4.1 flight models

Lets hope your UP2.01 made even more changes to make them more like the orginal HSFX4.1 flight models

Kwiatek Wrote:Your old test with P-51 was made with 1.8 UP. And thats why your test is not accurate and wrong for any UP 2.0 version.

So you claim that UP P-51 FM are wrong is not true.

You could check it byself in UP 2.01 and compare it with RL data for P-51.
Actully it was you and your claims over at the UltraPack site that the UP1.8 flight models were more accurate than the HSFX4.1 flight modles that is and was not true

- Kwiatek - 17.04.2010

Axial Wrote:
Kwiatek Wrote:Dorsal fillet was add to P-51 D due to directional stability problems after change canopy from P-51 B/C type and cut rear fuselage.

P-51B was little better in stability and hanlding then P-51D and has less take off weight. P-51 B was also faster and better climber at the same engine settings.

Add to P-51 D new ones - 20NT, 25 and 30 - they used the same FM characteristic and just have difference in engines settings:

- P-51 20NT - +67 Hg

- P-51 D-25 - +72 Hg

- P-51 D-30 - +75 Hg

Thats why D-30 is the fastes P-51D.

From what I've read in the past, that's the popular belief but it's not entirely true. The B and C models had stability problems, too, so the bubble canopy is not the reason they added the dorsal fillet. It may have slightly exacerbated it, but the problem was there on the earlier models nonetheless.

I have no doubt that the three D models in UP have the same FM characteristics...it just seems to me from my experience flying them that the 25NA handles better than the other two. Though I must confess I don't see any differences in the speed characteristics of any of them when in combat...I guess I'm making too many manoeuvres for that to matter at all.

Kwiatek, would you happen to know if the A-36 and/or P51A are in the pipeline for a UP update in the near future?

I remember that i read report and comparison about hadling charactertisic of P-51 B and D versions. There was about more directional stablility problems with early P-51D due to lower fuselage and new canopy design. The most stable version was P-51 A.

Unfortunatrly i didnt see project of P-51 A or A-36 - but maby some modder will make it in future.

- Axial - 17.04.2010

Well darn...was seriously hoping to fly an A-36 when UP3.0/2.02 rolled around :lol: