MiG-9FS vs. Me-262A-1a - Printable Version

MiG-9FS vs. Me-262A-1a - Printable Version

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- Thee_oddball - 13.04.2010

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Would this be a bad time to point out there is no santa claus or easter bunny

Or that wiki or Luft46.com are not the most reliable sorces?

Santa is a fat old guy who scares the piss out your kids in the mall and the easter bunny is chocolate ...that looks like a bunny Big Grin

- ACE-OF-ACES - 13.04.2010

Thee_oddball Wrote:
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Would this be a bad time to point out there is no santa claus or easter bunny

Or that wiki or Luft46.com are not the most reliable sorces?

Santa is a fat old guy who scares the piss out your kids in the mall and the easter bunny is chocolate ...that looks like a bunny

Two down

Two to go! Wink

- Thee_oddball - 13.04.2010

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:
Thee_oddball Wrote:
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Would this be a bad time to point out there is no santa claus or easter bunny

Or that wiki or Luft46.com are not the most reliable sorces?

Santa is a fat old guy who scares the piss out your kids in the mall and the easter bunny is chocolate ...that looks like a bunny
Two down

Two to go!

you don't need to surrender twice :wink: the ME262,234B,HE162 and what ever came next....given more time :twisted:

- ACE-OF-ACES - 13.04.2010

Thee_oddball Wrote:given more time :twisted:

Sorry.. times up

[Image: SB53.jpg]

By by Berlin :lol:

- Storebror - 14.04.2010

Thee_oddball Wrote:within a 6 month period they went from wind tunnel to producing 320 he162's now what do you think might have happened if the Germans had till April of 1946 to develop the 183?

Besides the fact that the radiation from the set of A-Bombs which would have been dropped on Germany in the mean time wouldn't allow anything but dying slowly, the remaining facts of late war situation and the knowledge from what has happened leads to the following assumption:

1.) The Germans would have put Ta-183 into production in the meantime, regardless any issues.
2.) One significant change to the prototype models of Ta-183 would be the elimination of excessive scarce material usage - the Ta-183, like many other late war aircrafts before, would have had to be made from wood and mild steel mainly.
3.) Straight forward this would lead to the Luftwaffe not only being equipped with a plane killing it's pilots by dipping the nose in the dirt on landing unexpectedly and disintegrating it's wooden parts (He-162) but additionally now another "let's end the flight without tail" pilot killer.
4.) A handpicked number of aircrafts would be revealed, but they couldn't fly any missions due to the lack of pilots (see 3.) and fuel.

Remember: Late war wasn't a "make a wish" game to the Germans.

Best regards - Mike

- RedChico - 14.04.2010

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:
Thee_oddball Wrote:
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Would this be a bad time to point out there is no santa claus or easter bunny

Or that wiki or Luft46.com are not the most reliable sorces?

Santa is a fat old guy who scares the piss out your kids in the mall and the easter bunny is chocolate ...that looks like a bunny
Two down

Two to go!

So what are the best sources?

- Storebror - 14.04.2010

RedChico Wrote:what are the best sources?

For what ifs? Common sense.
Wiki is prone to biased interpretations.
If you like to query something at all, you cannot avoid reading printed books. Yes, trust me, there's some more knowledge than what you can find by google.
Possible starting points:
http://bit.ly/drfCMC
http://bit.ly/aeFUbh

Best regards - Mike

- J99Eingehirner - 14.04.2010

Just to be a smartass to ACE-OF-ACES:
As a matter of fact, the Americans had exactly three nuclear bombs at their disposal, of which one was detonated at the Nevada Test Site (Trinity). They had put billions of dollars into building these three bombs. After the war, it took them quite some time to build new ones because the uranium and plutonium weren't readily available. There was a huge discussion going on around Little Boy and Fat Man being dropped over Hiroshima & Nagasaki because many people involved in the development didn't see them as weapons - more as a threat to avoid future wars, not for actually killing people. A lot of scientists left the project afterwards, horrified by the outcome of their work. Also, dropping the third of three prototypes left the US with exactly zero A-bombs to threaten anyone.

So, the worst thing that could have happened would have been two nuclear bombs dropped onto Germany. Not that much, considering the scattering of all the development and testing sites. But, as was said before, the Germans didn't have anything to build new planes from. If you start to discuss 1946-what-if scenarios, you have to come up with some more history-changing in the process. Which, of course, can lead to all kinds of new assumptions and developments.

And before somebody comes up with the old Germany-almost-had-a-nuclear-bomb-built-by-Heisenberg: NO. Read BOOKS about it. I recommend "Heisenberg's War". (Sorry, I'm getting tired of reading stuff like this... IF you want to phantasize, do it RIGHT.)

- ACE-OF-ACES - 14.04.2010

Storebror Wrote:
RedChico Wrote:what are the best sources?
For what ifs? Common sense.
Wiki is prone to biased interpretations.
If you like to query something at all, you cannot avoid reading printed books. Yes, trust me, there's some more knowledge than what you can find by google.
Possible starting points:
http://bit.ly/drfCMC
http://bit.ly/aeFUbh

Best regards - Mike

- ACE-OF-ACES - 14.04.2010

RedChico Wrote:So what are the best sources?

Hey Im still waiting on your pictures of the 183 prototype that was never build that you said the US captured and took back to the US for testing Wink

- ACE-OF-ACES - 14.04.2010

J99Eingehirner Wrote:Just to be a smartass to ACE-OF-ACES:
As a matter of fact, the Americans had exactly three nuclear bombs at their disposal, of which one was detonated at the Nevada Test Site (Trinity). They had put billions of dollars into building these three bombs. After the war, it took them quite some time to build new ones because the uranium and plutonium weren't readily available. There was a huge discussion going on around Little Boy and Fat Man being dropped over Hiroshima & Nagasaki because many people involved in the development didn't see them as weapons - more as a threat to avoid future wars, not for actually killing people. A lot of scientists left the project afterwards, horrified by the outcome of their work. Also, dropping the third of three prototypes left the US with exactly zero A-bombs to threaten anyone.

So, the worst thing that could have happened would have been two nuclear bombs dropped onto Germany. Not that much, considering the scattering of all the development and testing sites. But, as was said before, the Germans didn't have anything to build new planes from. If you start to discuss 1946-what-if scenarios, you have to come up with some more history-changing in the process. Which, of course, can lead to all kinds of new assumptions and developments.

And before somebody comes up with the old Germany-almost-had-a-nuclear-bomb-built-by-Heisenberg: NO. Read BOOKS about it. I recommend "Heisenberg's War". (Sorry, I'm getting tired of reading stuff like this... IF you want to phantasize, do it RIGHT.)

I know a thing or two about the ABOMBS

First things first the Trinity site is in New Mexico, not Nevada

I should know in that I work at the White Sands test facility in NM were the Trinity site resides

I drive by the Trinity site all the time

Been in it many times

We do alot of our current testing just a mile or two from it

Second thing to note is we build them to use aginst Germany

Thus had Germany figured out a way to extend the war such that they were a still a real threat

That all these 'what-if' Ta183 guys think they were (read the phantasy I was addressing with my ABOMB reference)

Instead of the last gasp one foot in the grave bunch that they were

Than you can bet one of the two left if not both would have been used on Germany

As for making more

You can also bet the US could have produced more ABOMBS before the first Ta183 ever took flight

Be sure

So gold star for effort on trying to be a smart ass wrt to my point

But you unknowingly just help drive my point home

Thanks!

PS if you or anyone else want to know what I mean by last gasp wrt the state of Germany near the end, Simply take a look at Hitlers health near the end, in that his health equates to the health of Germany itself near the end

- Storebror - 14.04.2010

J99Eingehirner Wrote:As a matter of fact, the Americans had exactly three nuclear bombs at their disposal, of which one was detonated at the Nevada Test Site (Trinity). They had put billions of dollars into building these three bombs. After the war, it took them quite some time to build new ones because the uranium and plutonium weren't readily available.
(...)
dropping the third of three prototypes left the US with exactly zero A-bombs to threaten anyone.

So, the worst thing that could have happened would have been two nuclear bombs dropped onto Germany.

Not quite.
There were two tracks for the production of nuclear weapons which were established completely different.

The Uranium Enrichment made it's greatest enhancements in winter 44/45 and the track was set up finally in Spring 1945. From that time on, production went continously and was growing. 2 devices have been finished until August 45, and the production went on with an amount suitable for app. 1 device per 1-2 months.

The Plutonium Reactors started mass production in December 44 ("D" Reactor) and February 45 ("F" Reactor).
The production growed rapidly then, from April to May alone, plutonium production increased five-fold.
By the end of August there were three devices available and 2 already detonated (including the one from Nagasaki).

In fact, if war would have continued into year 46, Germany would have faced at least 2 A-Bomb attacks per month.
Regardless how splattered the military production would have been, there wouldn't be any workers left to produce anything in time.

Best regards - Mike

- RedChico - 14.04.2010

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:
RedChico Wrote:So what are the best sources?
Hey Im still waiting on your pictures of the 183 prototype that was never build that you said the US captured and took back to the US for testing

at least i'll say that i was wrong but partially.

This is the picture of one of the trips with german airplanes aboard.

[Image: trans5.jpg]

There's another picture taken from above of another trip, showing a He 162 among other jets and one that looks like a Ta 183 but it seams that it was a Messerschmitt P.1101 an unfinished prototype instead. Fotos of it can be seen at Bell Aircraft facility on luft46.com site.

administration: please try to keep posts insult-free.

- ACE-OF-ACES - 14.04.2010

RedChico Wrote:Well im not the douchebag here so at least i'll say that i was wrong but partially.

no actually your fully wrong!

RedChico Wrote:This is the picture of one of the trips with german airplanes aboard.

So..

What part of none of these planes being a Ta183 do you not understand?

And

What part of me never saying they didn't bring some Luft planes back to the US did you not understand?

RedChico Wrote:There's another picture taken from above of another trip, showing a He 162 among other jets and one that looks like a Ta 183 but it seams that it was a Messerschmitt P.1101 an unfinished prototype instead. Fotos of it can be seen at Bell Aircraft facility on luft46.com site.

Bingo!

Now your getting up to speed!

I am so happy for you now that you can tell the difference between a Messer and a Fockwolf..! :twisted:

administration: please try to keep posts insult-free.

- LuckyOne - 14.04.2010

According to H.Truman,after Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bomb actions,USA was capable to produce 11 A-Bombs by February 1946.