MiG-9FS vs. Me-262A-1a - Printable Version
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- Thee_oddball - 16.04.2010
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Thee_oddball Wrote:list the ones (in early 1945)that had the engines, factory's and engineers please...save me the searchSo what part of me saying
p.s dont forget we are talking about advanced swept wing design...you the know..the one that the USA and Russia did not have till 47
Berlin would be glowing at night due to ABOMBS
Long before the first Ta183 ever took flight are you still strugling with?
A. you said I was mistaken so stop avoiding the question and provide the proof
B. what part of "theoretically" are you struggling with?
and to the 2 gents who just joined , it was all but over in april of 45, they may have been able to put some numbers but it would not have been sustainable.
The debate me and ACE our having is to whether or not they could have produced the Ta183/P.1101 by april of 46, theoretically yes...realistically no but they were making some headway right before the Reich went out of business
[url]http://www.militaryfactory.com/imageviewer/ac/pic-detail.asp?aircraft_id=658&sCurrentPic=messerschmitt-me-p1101.jpg&sCurrentDescriptor=Right%20side%20view%20of%20the%20Messerschmitt%20Me%20P.1101%20V1%20prototype%20with%20engine%20in%20place"]sdfsdfsd[/url]
- ACE-OF-ACES - 16.04.2010
Thee_oddball Wrote:will doACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Thee_oddball Wrote:list the ones (in early 1945)that had the engines, factory's and engineers please...save me the searchSo what part of me saying
p.s dont forget we are talking about advanced swept wing design...you the know..the one that the USA and Russia did not have till 47
Berlin would be glowing at night due to ABOMBS
Long before the first Ta183 ever took flight are you still strugling with?
A. you said I was mistaken so stop avoiding the question and provide the proof
B. what part of "theoretically" are you struggling with?
and to the 2 gents who just joined , it was all but over in april of 45, they may have been able to put some numbers but it would not have been sustainable.
The debate me and ACE our having is to whether or not they could have produced the Ta183/P.1101 by april of 46, theoretically yes...realistically no but they were making some headway right before the Reich went out of business
As soon as you stop avoiding the fact that Berlin would be glowing at night way before the first Ta183 ever took flight
- LuckyOne - 17.04.2010
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:As soon as you stop avoiding the fact that Berlin would be glowing at night way before the first Ta183 ever took flightNo need for that,British and Americans already have much better jets,swept wing or not,at least Allied jets are not self-flammable.
- Murph - 17.04.2010
Ro, if they built about 1200 262s (airframes, not engines) and 170 162s that totals 1370. How could Galland get 2000 planes from that? Furthermore, the throttle control for the Jumo engine was so squirrely only one plane could take off at a time and they could not be flown in formation. Since there were only a few fields long enough for a safe takeoff, how long to get 2000 262s airborne?
How much fuel would have been needed to train all those pilots?
- TheGrunch - 17.04.2010
Murph Wrote:How could Galland get 2000 planes from that?That's not what he said. He said that Galland had enough *fuel* to put 2000 planes in the air, not that he had 2000 planes. I don't find it hard to believe that the Luftwaffe could have put 100 (not 2000) jet fighters in the air at that point if Galland had been given the authority to do so.
Problem is of course that once the A-bombs were armed (usually mid-flight) they were really quite dangerous either way, so I don't think that shooting them down would have been much fun for the people below them anyway.
- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010
LuckyOne Wrote:No need for that,British and Americans already have much better jets,swept wing or not,True
I just like pointing out that while the Germans were trying to make a another jet the Americans were spliting atoms
A much harder task
On that note you have to ask youself why were they trying to make another jet?
If we are to belive the Germans were SO FAR AHEAD of the rest jet wise with their Me262 and thier He162
Why not refine those instead of making a totally new jet?
Reason is the Germans knew the Britts and Americans allready had much better jets
On that note
I wonder how many of these blue lovers even know that the Me262 was not intended to be the first swept wing fighter
As a mater of FACT the only reason the wings got swept on the Me262 was to correct the center of gravity due to the larger and heavier jet engines
Thus to maintain the cg they had to push the engines farter to the rear
And the only way to do that without a total re-design was to sweep the wing back
LuckyOne Wrote:at least Allied jets are not self-flammable.ROTFL
- Guest - 17.04.2010
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:If we are to belive the Germans were SO FAR AHEAD of the rest jet wise with their Me262 and thier He162
Why not refine those instead of making a totally new jet?
Others were fiddling with prototypes while 262 was in full production (without that "blitz bomber" episode production would start a full year earlier,'43)...and He162 was scheduled for refinement (forward swept wings and other stuff)
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Reason is the Germans knew the Britts and Americans allready had much better jets
Meteor and YP80?Galland had experience with Meteor's in Argentina,and he said that 262 was better.I can't say anything about YP80 because I didn't read much about them.
Murph Wrote:Ro, if they built about 1200 262s (airframes, not engines) and 170 162s that totals 1370. How could Galland get 2000 planes from that?
Galland had collected enough gasoline for piston fighters to put 2000 planes in air at the same time (~end of '44).Plan was,next time bomber formations came,these 2000 planes will deal with them and the escorts..and hopefully inflict such heavy casualties that Americans would rethink their bombing campaign.
- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010
EnsignRo Wrote:Others were fiddling with prototypes while 262 was in full production (without that "blitz bomber" episode production would start a full year earlier,'43)...and He162 was scheduled for refinement (forward swept wings and other stuff)Actully the delay do to Hitler wanting to make it a bomber is a myth
The real hold up was the engines
And the fact remains that the Me262 was intally designed as a 'straight' wing fighter
And that they swept the wings to correct the cg
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Meteor and YP80? Galland had experience with Meteor's in Argentina,and he said that 262 was better.I can't say anything about YP80 because I didn't read much about them.So let me see if I understand your so called proof
An ex nazi pilot said he liked the Me262 better
Big suprise
Not to mention he did not say what better means
For all you know he ment he like the looks better
- Thee_oddball - 17.04.2010
LuckyOne Wrote:No need for that,British and Americans already have much better jets,swept wing or not,at least Allied jets are not self-flammable.
Really?!...what plane would that be?? the Meteor MkI (max speed 410mph ) or how about the MK3 (max speed 496mph) neither as fast as the me262 but you dont have to worry about them bursting into flames...
Quote:Safety record
A total of 890 Meteors were lost in service with the RAF (145 crashes in 1953 alone), resulting in the deaths of 450 pilots.
Contributory factors in the number of crashes were the high fuel consumption and therefore short endurance (less than one hour) causing pilots to run out of fuel, and difficult handling with one engine out due to the widely-set engines. The casualty rate was exacerbated by the lack of ejection seats except in the F 8, especially in the training version T 7 and F 4 fighters relegated to training/conversion duties.
this is after a further 8 years of development and the "no ejection seat" just blows my mind....and the de Havilland Vampire went into production as the war ended..it had a speed closer to the 262 but neither reached the serial production numbers of the 262,234,162 before the war ended.
YP-59A wasn't any better than the P-51 and the P-80 started life as a pilot killer
Quote:The P-80 testing program proved very dangerous. Burcham was killed on 20 October 1944 while flying the third YP-80A produced, 44-83025. The "Gray Ghost" was lost on a test flight on 20 March 1945, although pilot Tony LeVier escaped. Newly promoted to chief engineering test pilot to replace Burcham, LeVier bailed out when one of the engine's turbine blades broke, causing structural failure in the airplane's tail. LeVier landed hard and broke his back, but returned to the test program after six months of recovery. Noted ace Major Richard Bong was also killed on an acceptance flight of a production P-80 in the United States on 6 August 1945. Both Burcham and Bong crashed as a result of main fuel pump failure. Burcham's death was the result of a failure to brief him on a newly installed emergency fuel pump backup system, but the investigation of Bong's crash found he had apparently forgotten to switch on the emergency fuel pump that could have prevented the accident. He bailed out when the aircraft rolled inverted but was too close to the ground for his parachute to deploy.
The Shooting Star began to enter service in late 1944 with 12 pre-production YP-80A's one of which was destroyed in the accident that killed Burcham. A thirteenth YP-80A was modified to the sole F-14 photo reconnaissance model and lost in a December crash. Four were sent to Europe for operational testing (two to England and two to the 1st Fighter Group at Lesina Airfield, Italy) but when test pilot Major Frederic Borsodi was killed in a crash caused by an engine fire on 28 January 1945, demonstrating YP-80A 44-83026 at RAF Burtonwood, the YP-80A was temporarily grounded. Because of the delay the Shooting Star saw no combat in World War II.
[/quote]
Lucky the birth of the jet age was plagued with problems for ALL! but the major difference between the Germans and the allies was that they were not being bombed day and night and running short on resources while fighting a war on 2 fronts, the meteor,vampire and 80 were good planes but were quickly out classed by the new swept wing fighters (mig15/f86) which were not copy's of German designs but heavily influenced by the work done by Germans on swept wings. the Americans went as far as to build a replica of the P.1101 fighter they captured to study the viability of variable wing geometry that was later used in the F14 and F111 (swingwing) bomber.
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:True
I just like pointing out that while the Germans were trying to make a another jet the Americans were spliting atoms
A much harder task
very true..Prof. otto Hahn would know all about that
Quote:On that note you have to ask youself why were they trying to make another jet?
If we are to belive the Germans were SO FAR AHEAD of the rest jet wise with their Me262 and thier He162
Why not refine those instead of making a totally new jet?
ummm they were....
Variants HE162
Sources differ on the details of the production versions of the He 162. All agree that the He 162A-2 was armed with two 20mm MG 151 cannon, and that one version was to be armed with two 30mm MK 108 cannon, but while most sources state that this was the A-3, others give it the designation A-1. Here we will follow the first suggestion
He 162 A-1
The He 162A-1 was powered by the BMW 003A-1 engine, and was the earliest production version of the aircraft. It was soon superseded by the A-2.
He 162 A-2
The A-2 became the standard production version of the aircraft. It was powered by the BMW 003A-3 engine, and armed with two 20mm MG 151 cannon each with 120 rounds.
He 162 A-3
The A-3 was a design for a version of the He 162 that would have been armed with two 30mm Mk 108 cannon, each with 50 rounds. This cannon put an unacceptable strain on the standard He 162 fuselage, and the A-3 may have been a design with a stronger fuselage designed to counter this.
He 162S
The He 162S was a tandem two-seat training aircraft. Two prototypes were produced, and a third aircraft may have been produced. The first was ready to fly on 28 March 1945, but a few days later the training programme was scrapped and the aircraft were destroyed.
Proposed Versions
The destruction of many Heinkel records towards the end of the war means that many details of the He 162 programme are now obscure. The following list includes all proposed versions that we have found mentioned.
A-6
The A-6 was to have a stronger fuselage, extended from 29ft 8in to 30ft 1in. V25-V28 were built with the longer fuselage, possibly as prototypes for this series.
A-8
The A-8 was to have been powered by the Junkers Jumo 004D-4 turboket, and given larger fuel tanks to increase its endurance. It had an estimated maximum speed of 551mph.
A-9
The A-9 was to have been a version of the A-2 with a butterfly tail assembly, as tested on the He 280 V7 and V8. The butterfly tail replaced the horizontal surface and twin rudders of the standard He 162 with two small wings, mounted in a 'vee' shape, and with control surfaces on the trailing edge.
A-14
The A-14 was probably a test-bed for the planned C-1 and D-1 versions. A partially completed prototype was captured by the Allies, and could have taken either swept back or swept forward wings.
B-1 and B-2
In November 1944 the German Air Ministry issued a specification for an even simpler fighter, to be powered by the Argus impulse duct engine, as used on the V-1. Heinkel responded with two designs - the B-1, which would have been powered by one Argus As 014 engine and the B-2, with one As 044 engine. The Argus engine couldn't provide any power until the aircraft was moving at speed, and so the He 162B would have had to be launched either by catapults or rockets. The project was soon abandoned.
C-1
The C-1 would have used swept-forward wings and the butterfly tail, and would have been powered by the HeS 011 engine. It was suggested in December 1944, and work may have begun on a test bed, the A-14.
D-1
The D-1 was proposed at the same time as the C-1, and would have been given swept back wings, the butterfly tail and the HeS 011 engine. The outer panels of the wings may have been angled downwards. As with the C-1 the A-14 may have been a test bed for this design.
Reason is the Germans knew the Britts and Americans allready had much better jets
On that note
wonder how many of these blue lovers even know that the Me262 was not intended to be the first swept wing fighter
As a mater of FACT the only reason the wings got swept on the Me262 was to correct the center of gravity due to the larger and heavier jet engines
Thus to maintain the cg they had to push the engines farter to the rear
And the only way to do that without a total re-design was to sweep the wing back
ME262
Willy Messerschmitt regarded the Me 262 as it went into production only as an interim type. His interest in high-speed flight that had led him to initiate work on swept wings starting in 1940 is evident from the advanced developments he had on his drawing board in 1944. While the Me 262 HG I (Hochgeschwindigkeit, high speed) that was actually flight-tested in 1944 had only small changes compared to combat aircraft, most notably a low-profiled canopy to reduce drag, the HG II and HG III designs were far more radical. The projected HG II variant combined the low-drag canopy with a 35° wing sweep and a butterfly tail. The HG III aircraft had a conventional tail, but a 45° wing sweep and the jet turbines embedded in the wing root.
Messerschmitt also conducted a series of carefully controlled flight tests with the series production Me 262. In these dive tests, it was established that the Me 262 was out of control in a dive at Mach 0.86, and that higher Mach numbers would lead to a nose-down trim that could not be countered by the pilot. The resulting steepening of the dive would lead to even higher speeds and disintegration of the airframe due to excessive negative g loads.
The HG series of Me 262 derivatives was estimated to be capable of reaching transonic Mach numbers in level flight, with the top speed of the HG III being projected as Mach 0.96 at 6 km altitude. Despite the necessity to gain experience in high-speed flight for the HG II and III designs, Messerschmitt undertook no attempts to exceed the Mach 0.86 limit for the Me 262.
After the war, the Royal Aircraft Establishment
- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010
Neat but you didn't explane why they felt the need to make new jets
If they were SO FAR AHEAD OF EVERYONE ELSE
Jet wise
- Thee_oddball - 17.04.2010
ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Neat but you didn't explane why they felt the need to make new jets
If they were SO FAR AHEAD OF EVERYONE ELSE
Jet wise
they call it ....Progress..
and I don't remember seeing any pics of Adolf galland in a black and silver uniform...
- TheGrunch - 17.04.2010
To be fair ACE, at that stage in the war the Nazis were desperately grasping for anything that might give them an advantage against the Allied bombing campaign and to delay their defeat, so why wouldn't they be developing newer and better designs as fast as they could, regardless of the state of Allied jet development? Surpassing Allied jet development was no doubt considered important, but only in the sense that it was a prerequisite in order that Luftwaffe pilots could shoot as many bombers out of the sky as possible without losing too many aircraft.
- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010
Thee_oddball Wrote:they call it ....Progress..Some would call it silly
When you consider the fact their resources were strapped
Thus the only logical conclusion one can make is they knew their current crop of jets were not going to maintain the edge over the allied planes
Thus dispelling the myth that their current crops of jets were more advanced than anything the allied had
Note I said logical conclusion
Thus you mileage may vary
- ACE-OF-ACES - 17.04.2010
TheGrunch Wrote:To be fair ACE, at that stage in the war the Nazis were desperately grasping for anything that might give them an advantage against the Allied bombing campaign and to delay their defeat, so why wouldn't they be developing newer and better designs as fast as they could, regardless of the state of Allied jet development? Surpassing Allied jet development was no doubt considered important, but only in the sense that it was a prerequisite in order that Luftwaffe pilots could shoot as many bombers out of the sky as possible without losing too many aircraft.No I understand
And I agree
But oddball can not have his cake an eat it too
There is only two choices here
1) Their current jet designs were more advanced than the allied and did NOT need replacing
2) Their current jet designs were NOT more advanced than the allied and did need replacing
But it can not be both
- TheGrunch - 17.04.2010
Yes it can.
How about "Their current jet designs were more advanced than the Allies', but still not good enough at shooting down bombers" or "Their current jet designs were more advanced than the Allies', but the Germans foresaw the need to keep advancing just in case the Allies caught up."