MiG-15 and F-85 Sabre Issues (post them here) - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: MiG-15 and F-85 Sabre Issues (post them here) (/showthread.php?tid=65582)

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- ACE-OF-ACES - 01.11.2009

After posting the IL2C test data I started looking for some real world data to compare to.. In that short search I found alot of references to sea level rates of climb but no test data showing the rates of climb per altitudes. In that short search I noted there is the early MiG15 than the later 'improved' MiG15bis. With that said all but one of the references puts the MiG15bis max rate of climb (sea level) at 50 m/s (9,842 ft/min) where as you can see from the IL2C chart the in-game MiG15bis has a max rate of climb (sea level) of ~65 m/s (12,795 ft/sec). Which is a value I have seen the MiG17 quoted at, but only one internet reference put the MiG15bis at that rate of climb.

So I was wondering PeterD what data did you base that rate of climb on? In that it seems like you took the best of the MiG an the worst of the 86 when it comes to rate of climb.

But again, that was just a quick search, Im really just interested in what real world data you based that rate of climb on.

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- Sneeke - 01.11.2009

I dont think that this tests results are correct, simply try to get 1300km/h|10000m on Sabre. Also climb values for MiG approximately correct, as i tested it, see chart below.

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- ACE-OF-ACES - 01.11.2009

Sneeke Wrote:I dont think that this tests results are correct, simply try to get 1300km/h|10000m on Sabre.

As with IL2C from the start, it has never been 100% accurate, as per Oleg himself. Espically at the frindge values, but, it tends to be pretty close. And note those are TAS values not IAS

Sneeke Wrote:Also climb values for MiG approximately correct, as i tested it, see chart below.

Do you have the track file from that test? If so can you post it? If not I can do the test myself, but to make it match yours I would have to know the best climb speed you used during the test.

Also my russian is not so good, can you tell me what the two lines represent? Is one full throttle and the other is?

Also note this is a time to climb chart, not a rate of climb chart, we can take the dx/dt of this chart to get the average rate of climbs, but it would really be nice to find an actual rate of climb per altitude chart.

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- Sneeke - 01.11.2009

Here is technical instruction with tests results of 15bis and 15 (in russian):

http://ifolder.ru/14608804
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KCEHTIB2
http://rapidshare.com/files/296010081/m ... o.zip.html

And some charts from it
1. Best climb TAS


2. Climb IAS by H


3. And climb vert speed


Subjectively I got close results in time to height tests on full real settings.

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- ACE-OF-ACES - 01.11.2009

WAY COOL!

On chart #2 you call it climb speed IAS, it looks more like a top speed per altitude chart?
In that your #1 chart shows the best climb speed per alt.

Was that a type-o?

Or is both of those charts the best climb speed, only one in TAS and one in IAS?

Also I see in the last chart, the rate of climb chart confims what most of the internet links were saying, ie 50m/s @ sea level

Again thank you very much!

You got stuff like this on the F86?

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- Sneeke - 01.11.2009

I trying to find some real life F-86 manuals/test books, but so far i meet only "payware" copies in web.
If there's will be some references on Sabre i post it here in a momemt. :wink:

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- ACE-OF-ACES - 01.11.2009

Sneeke Wrote:I trying to find some real life F-86 manuals/test books, but so far i meet only "payware" copies in web.

That sucks..

How much $ they askin for it?

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- Sneeke - 01.11.2009

About 10 dead presidents each:
http://www.aircraft-manuals.com/f87.html
Other sites have same offers, and no preview too.

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- ACE-OF-ACES - 01.11.2009

Sneeke Wrote:About 10 dead presidents each:
http://www.aircraft-manuals.com/f87.html
Other sites have same offers, and no preview too.

WOW! That is a cool site!

The sad part is you just know it is out there for free on the web someware.. but than again if time is money it might take me a few hours to find it.. so maybe $10/per aint a bad deal for all the leg work they did?

Anyway, if I do DL and pay for some of them, ill send you a copy for free, email me at flightsimtesting@yahoo.com so I can get your email addr, in that you gave me that great pdf on the MiG!

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- Sneeke - 01.11.2009

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:On chart #2 you call it climb speed IAS, it looks more like a top speed per altitude chart?

Nope, best TAS climb speed on all altitudes is 710km/h on 11560rpm (full throttle), in this chart (#2) shown IAS by alt and TAS is 710.

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:In that your #1 chart shows the best climb speed per alt.

Correct and best climb speeds for both main RPMs are almost constant on all heights.

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- Sneeke - 01.11.2009

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:The sad part is you just know it is out there for free on the web someware.. but than again if time is money it might take me a few hours to find it.. so maybe $10/per aint a bad deal for all the leg work they did?

I think you should wait some time, until we find a table of contents for book to pay for. They have eleven different books for three Saberes fought in Korea. And my previous search wasnt wery extensive, I spend about ten minutes last time.

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- ACE-OF-ACES - 01.11.2009

Well I ordered that 1953 flight manual on the F86A, strange in that the F86F came out in 53, but, it does take them some time to make them things. There was an even newer one from 57, it too said 86A, but, it looked kind of hokie from the cover so I went with the 53, thinking it probally was the most up to date wrt the 86A, where as the 1951 probally still had some errors in it.

Bad news is it was not a buy and DL thing, it was a buy and they send me a CD thing. So, when it gets here Ill send you a copy of it via email. Feel free to remind me about it in a week or so, i got so many things going on right now I may forget to send it!

Down side is, these flight manuals tend to be kind of light. That is to say they dont allways have the tables we are looking for, and if they do they tend to be very conservative, in that they are trying to real the pilots back to give them some margin. I would really like to see an aceptance test on the F86 or an NACA test on it, but, hopfully this flight manual will have some useful charts

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- Sneeke - 01.11.2009

ACE-OF-ACES Wrote:Well I ordered that 1953 flight manual on the F86A, but it was not a buy and DL thing, it was a buy and they send me a CD thing. So, when it gets here Ill send you a copy of it via email. Feel free to remind me about it in a week or so, i got so many things going on right now I may forget to send it!

Hope they have no logistics problems. But I feel hesitate (right word?) for now, cause MiG book is free for all and takes only traffic If you need things to be translated in russian manual just wrote what pages you need :wink:

Edit: http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/F-86_FJ-2.html Here is somthing for 86F-1/30

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- ACE-OF-ACES - 01.11.2009

JG14_Jagr Wrote:Here's an idea for a mod Peter.. how about a mod to have True Airspeed either as a choice, or instead of the IAS on the speed bar? With the speed of these two planes and the high ceilings involved people that already don't seem to get the whole TAS/IAS are really going to be confused.

That MOD is allready part of of the UI! Has been for awhile now.. Simply put this into your config.ini file, i.e.

[Mods]
SpeedbarTAS=1

And than when you toggle the speed bar in the cockpit view it will display the following

KPH IAS
KNT IAS
MPH IAS
KPH TAS
KNT TAS
MPH TAS

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- duffys tavern - 01.11.2009

Maybe this site can help:
http://sectionf8.com/download.html

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