AI? - Printable Version
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+---- Thread: AI? (/showthread.php?tid=55886)
AI? - Hawkman - 18.08.2008
Hi - I'm relatively new to this forum, but having played the sim for some years now, and like many others, lamented the fact that Oleg and his team couldn't give us all the maps/planes/sounds that we wanted. I'm highly excited by all the work going on here (reminds me of the good old days of modding RB3D), and once I get my PC upgraded, will be trying out these mods.
I have a question concerning AI aircraft: is it now possible to modify the behaviour of AI aircraft in the game? Specifically, I'm talking about the kind of AI behaviour we've seen implemented by the BDG team on BoB II WoV - AI aircraft engaging and disengaging where certain conditions exist, how AI a/c react according to pilot experience, and also formations that a/c fly acccording to their type and role (eg 'box' formations for B17s, pre-war RAF 'vic' formations and tactics, and so on).
It's been well documented, for example, how the RAF soon realised how outmoded their pre-war tactics were in the face of the LW - experience Me 109 pilots were able to 'bounce' RAF huricanes flying vics, knock down 1 or 1 a/c, and get clean away before their less experience counterparts could react. Many RAF pilots shot down this way early in the war never knew what hit them. Obviously, this changed as RAF pilots became more experienced and adopted many of the tactics used by the enemy. If something like this could be implemented, it would add a great deal to early war scenarios.
Another gripe of mine is the behaviour of AI a/c flying at low-level. I would love to be able to set up flights of Mosquitoes hedge-hopping all the the way to and from the target, without seeing AI pilots 'porpoising' and doing crazy wing-over manouvres.
Anyway, it now seems that anything is possible with this wonderful sim - is anybody working on such a mod?
Hawkers
- fly_zo - 19.08.2008
hi, and welcome
as for modding AI goes , there is concern for online influences (coop) so i believe no one has seriously dig into AI behavior at the moment .... which is real shame IMHO
anyway there are threads regarding AI's so do search for them ....
here is the latest one :
viewtopic.php?t=7134
regards
Z
- Th!rdeye - 19.08.2008
fly_zo Wrote:as for modding AI goes , there is concern for online influences (coop) so i believe no one has seriously dig into AI behavior at the moment .... which is real shame IMHO
I believe noone has dug into it for one, most of the people who are willing (or think they are) to tackle this lack the knowledge to actually find the files, and the ones who tried (me and maybe a few others) have found it to be unbearably hard to get it. Tons of equations and constant "else if" statements.
- Hawkman - 19.08.2008
Thanks, chaps. Obviously, the concerns about how modding may affect online and co op players has a big say on what gets modded, and what isn't allowed, and I appreciate that. However, I think an offline only mod (if that's possible) to modify and make AI behaviour more realistic would be welcomed by off-liners, mission & campaign builders, and would add a lot to the sim. I understand that what we'rew talking about here involves weeks and months of work - the complexity of advanced AI coding is something a 'non tech' like me can't even begin to understand. :? But having said that, the motto of this community seems to be 'anything is possible', and just look at what folks have given us this far
The work that BDG did on the AI coding for BoB II was phenomenal, and has transformed that game - BoB II's AI is by far the most realistic and immersive of anything we have in flight sims currently. I wonder if Bader or any of the BDG team are watching this space and would be prepared to look into what's achievable for our sim?
Hawkers
- poncho - 19.08.2008
I was hoping to tinker with the ai when I finished soem other projects. Realistically, I know I don't have the skills or the knowledge or the energy to produce a functional mod. To do this right it would take a multitalented team.
1. need someone with excellent Java skills.
2. need a historian(s) with detailed knowledge of fighter tactics for all nations.
3. Since BOB II seems to be a good template for ai- need someone with that understands the inner workings of that sim.
4. Need testers with the time to evaluate the playability of changed ai behavior.
5. Need modders that have thick skins because there will always be plenty of people that are unhappy with this change or that.
Maybe this weekend I will crack open some of the files and try to make a list of the parameters that go into ai behavior. Maybe that would be a way to start the ball rolling on this massive project.
- Th!rdeye - 19.08.2008
I don't think you guys can use BOB2 as a helping point. They use a completely different code than IL-2.
- poncho - 19.08.2008
Third,
I'm sure that is right, but it might be useful to know what triggers BOB uses to initiate varoius ai behaviors.
- Hawkman - 19.08.2008
Quote:Maybe this weekend I will crack open some of the files and try to make a list of the parameters that go into ai behavior. Maybe that would be a way to start the ball rolling on this massive project.
Well, good luck with that. I'm no coder, but if you need help with testing, I'll see what I can do.
As you say, BoB II is obviously a different engine and code, but looking at the parameters & conditions the BDG team used to trigger different AI behaviour in that game could be a useful starting point for developing something similar for the IL2 engine. I know that the BDG team used the basic parameters of
1. Altitude (how much altitude and rate of change)
2. Speed (how much speed, and rate of change)
3. Position of A/C to each other (none to tail, tail to tail, nose to beam, tail to beam or left, right, front, back)
in determining what flying manouvres AI pilots would select in a given situation.
Added to this would be the skill & experience level of the AI pilot, in executing a manouvre, how well he could fly that manouvre, and of course what the given a/c type was physically capable of (e.g. for a diving attack, 109 pilots could simply 'bunt' - Spit & Hurricane pilots had to half roll). And then on top of all that, you have to take into account factors such as remaining fuel & ammunition/ordnance and damage to the a/c.
It's a lot to think about, but have a look at how BDG tackled it here:
http://shockwaveproductions.com/forum/v ... 6c891d2026
Hawkers
- Guest - 02.10.2008
Hawkman Wrote:Quote:Maybe this weekend I will crack open some of the files and try to make a list of the parameters that go into ai behavior. Maybe that would be a way to start the ball rolling on this massive project.
Well, good luck with that. I'm no coder, but if you need help with testing, I'll see what I can do.
As you say, BoB II is obviously a different engine and code, but looking at the parameters & conditions the BDG team used to trigger different AI behaviour in that game could be a useful starting point for developing something similar for the IL2 engine. I know that the BDG team used the basic parameters of
1. Altitude (how much altitude and rate of change)
2. Speed (how much speed, and rate of change)
3. Position of A/C to each other (none to tail, tail to tail, nose to beam, tail to beam or left, right, front, back)
in determining what flying manouvres AI pilots would select in a given situation.
Added to this would be the skill & experience level of the AI pilot, in executing a manouvre, how well he could fly that manouvre, and of course what the given a/c type was physically capable of (e.g. for a diving attack, 109 pilots could simply 'bunt' - Spit & Hurricane pilots had to half roll). And then on top of all that, you have to take into account factors such as remaining fuel & ammunition/ordnance and damage to the a/c.
It's a lot to think about, but have a look at how BDG tackled it here:
http://shockwaveproductions.com/forum/v ... 6c891d2026
Hawkers
bumping "THE" MOD ..
- Billfish - 02.10.2008
Why not try to discover how the program for them was when they were so darn good (3.01-3.04 somewhere in there I believe) that folks threw a fit over them as they'd team like aces.....
Seriously, you could not tell AI from live pilots, was stunning.
K2