Black Out - Printable Version
+- All-Aircraft-Simulations (https://allaircraftsimulations.com)
+-- Forum: IL2 MODS Download & Discussion (https://allaircraftsimulations.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=267)
+--- Forum: IL-2 4.09m (https://allaircraftsimulations.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=348)
+---- Forum: IL2 MODS Discussion Section 4.09m (https://allaircraftsimulations.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=292)
+---- Thread: Black Out (/showthread.php?tid=59838)
+- All-Aircraft-Simulations (https://allaircraftsimulations.com)
+-- Forum: IL2 MODS Download & Discussion (https://allaircraftsimulations.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=267)
+--- Forum: IL-2 4.09m (https://allaircraftsimulations.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=348)
+---- Forum: IL2 MODS Discussion Section 4.09m (https://allaircraftsimulations.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=292)
+---- Thread: Black Out (/showthread.php?tid=59838)
Black Out - American - 08.03.2009
Im not sure if (and it probably has been) this has been posted before but i feel that the way you black out in the game is extremely inaccurate. First of all when you are begining to black out what really happens is that you lose your color vision (Because the most sensitive cells in your eye's get affected first). when your just about to black out what happens is that you get the "curtain" affect where you just see a curtain of black come down from the top of your eye's. Is there any way that any one can make a mod like this?
It would be realy realistic and Kool!
- pokemaughan - 08.03.2009
The last time I blacked out I wouldn't be able to tell you what happened. It doesn't matter much to me what it it looks like...
- Bearcat - 08.03.2009
LMAO... yeah but were you pulling 7+Gs at the time...
- Romanator - 08.03.2009
From what I have read pilots experience a "tunnel effect". They loose peripheral vision, and the field of view narrows to a small point, and then goes black. According to this, the game's method of simulating blackout works just fine.
- GADGET - 09.03.2009
I think you are making a mistake if you believe that the actual model is completely wrong.
G-Lock is a curiosus effect and is not uniform to all individuals. It depends on very sutile things, such as how well did you sleep last nignt, if you have drank alcohool recently, if you are catching the flu and have the first sinthoms, what your corporal mass is, how your diggestion is going, how often you are exposed to Gs, and how athelitc you are.
This causes that G-lock can come on some individuals at low as 4 Gs (iL-2) and for some others an instant 14 Gs is perfectly tolerable and asking for more.
G-locks can come suddenly and not showing the gray-out and narrow field of vision named before.
Nevertheless I do agree on several statements named above, and I might sugest others:
1) 4 Gs (iL-2) is not the correct tolerance for the average skinny 20-year old carefully selected pilots of WW2. My sugestion would be more in the 7 Gs range and at least 9 instant
- zulu64 - 10.03.2009
G LOC and blacking out are 2 very different things. You should be able to black out in any WWII fighter. As to G-Loc I dont believe ANY WWII fighter could generate sufficient G onset rates and total G to cause G-LOC..... unless in the process of breaking up.
The average G suit provides about 1.5G extra margin over blackout thresholds. Many US fighters in the European theatre towards the end of 1944 were equipped and pilots fitted out to wear G suits.
Few (if any) other combatants used or were equipped with them.
- American - 10.03.2009
It is possible to go into g-lock.. G-lock simply happens when not enough blood is going around. It depends on the pilot. i agree with most of what gadget say's. And even tho It is true that every one reacts differently to G's the grey out affect (Lose of color vision) i hear is quite common because cone cell's are alot more sensitive then the rod cell's and also "less important" so the body try's harder just to keep the rod cells. The the curtail comes as blood is drained from the bottom of the eye.
Cmon i definitely think this is a must make mod.
- Davew - 10.03.2009
I'd tend to agree with what gadget says as well.
G-LOC - (Loss of consciousness forms the acronym) is the same as blacking out. There are though, as gadget alluded to, two types, sustained and sudden. Sustained g will result in LOC at lower g because of the effect on the body. Sudden g has to be much higher.
G LOC isnt modelled well in Il2, and its made worse by the fact that the AI pilots dont suffer from it, leaving the human pilot at a severe disadvantage.
I've done lots of aeros, and had the grey out effect, though never black out, and it does depend on the day to a certain extent. But I'm not sure how well Il2 can model it anyway. Experience in G straining procedures wasnt common in ww2, physical characteristics of the pilot, fitness and the aircraft you were sitting in would make much more of a difference i think. The aircraft could be modelled, but not really the pilot specific items? (Incidentally gadget, 109 pilots were among the best of the war at resisting g because of the pilots position in the aircraft). Perhaps the best Il2 can do is model the grey out followed by the black out and make it different for different aircraft, though i wouldnt say it was appropriate for different classes of pilot.
By the way zulu - the Zero was stressed to about 12G if I remember correctly. Higher than just about any other combat aircraft in history, higher than the F-16, F-22, or the MiG 29 I believe.
- American - 10.03.2009
Well remember that most AC now a day's are only made to about 10 g rating because most pilot;s can't hand more then 10 for just a couple seconds.
BTW incase you ask AC= AirCraft.....
- zulu64 - 10.03.2009
When you "Black Out" having gone through the greying out process you don't lose consciousness, You do loose vision as Gadget describes but you can still hear,smell and talk. ... trust me I have been there numerous times in the backseat watching students BFM
In G LOC you go instantly into loss of consciousness. Then you are out of it completely for a significant period. G LOC is a relatively new term that came about with the advent aeroplanes like the F16/F20 etc that had G limiters in the Flight control system. This allowed pilots for the first time to simply pull full backstick as quick as they could without fear of overstressing etc. The Result was phenomenal G ONSET rates. Couple that with much higher Airframe G limits and you wander into G LOC territory.
The first documented G LOC fatality was the F20 accident in Goose Bay after an air show "accident".
http://www.f20a.com/f20crash.htm
Numerous early F16 accidents were subsequently attributed to G LOC.
In non limiter fighter aircraft you just cant honk back on the pole ... if you do you will likely pull the wings off. The technique is to rapidly but carefiully pull the G on varying the rate as you approach the limit be it G or Lift limit. This G onset rate is well below the thresholds of G LOC. In addition WWII fighters by nature of their design just could not generate the G onset rates that go with G LOC. They could generate the G associated with greying and blackouts but not for long. As to sustained G (i.e level maintaining airspeed... Ps=0) the max any WWII fighter could sustain was about 3.2G. Typical in service design G was 8.
IL2 represents Grey out and Black out exceptionally well in my opinion. It would be nice to see a G Suit mod that pushes the Black out boundary 1 to 1.5G more than it is currently set to. This would then reasonably represent the advantage the US G suit equipped pilots had from say October/November 1944 in the European theatre.
As to the Zero the original design specfication with regards structural strength was:
Situation A (Final pull out from Dive)
Load Factor 7.0 ; Safety factor 1.8 G (I.e. ultimate design load 8.8G)
Situation B (Initial phase of pull out from dive)
Load Factor 7.0 ; Safety factor 1.8 G (I.e. ultimate design load 8.8G .... same as Situation A)
Situation C (At limiting Speed in a dive (i.e. Vne)
Load factor 2.0 ; Safety Factor 1.8G (i.e. ultimate design load at Vne 3.8G)
Situation D ( Negative G)
Load Factor -3.5 ; Safety Factor 1.8G (implies ultimate negative load factor -5.3 !)
Ref: Chap 2 ,Page 16 "Meeting the requirements" ---Zero Combat & Development by Robert Mikesh.
- Davew - 10.03.2009
Thanks for the info there Zulu. I'd read about the Zero, but only in analogy. Nice to have technical material to look at. I'll have to see if i can find the book you reference.
But as for G LOC, at least as it was taught to me, it only relates to the loss of consciousness, not the immediacy of its onset. Blackout will lead to G LOC if the situation continues. So my previous post was wrong there, it didnt read the way i meant it. Sorry about that. What i meant was that you can reach G LOC either after blacking out, or immediately. But G LOC is the process, not the end result.
Id direct you to the centrifugal tests that were conducted on astronauts. Symptons went through grey out, black out and full loss of consciousness. And thats where the term originated. Moreover, the Goose Bay crash was the only crash where G LOC was determined to be the cause, but that doesnt mean it was the first crash where it was the cause. And even in the report that you quote it has the following "High positive g interrupts the normal flow of blood to the brain; g induced loss of consciousness (GLC) occurs as a result of brain tissue hypoxia. Because the retinal arteries collapse at a higher eye level blood pressure and hence at a lower g level, loss of consciousness is usually preceded by "grey out'' or "black out.""
You may also be interested to know, assuming that you dont already, that the Stuka had an automatic pull out system after the dive. The reason this was incorporated? Pilots were losing consciousness in the recovery from the dive. It's not a new phenomenon.
- zulu64 - 10.03.2009
Greetings Davew.
I think I said reference the F20 crash the first "documented" loss due G LOC. I agree Total G held for long enough will also result in loss of consciousness (so will holding your breath
however the G Onset rate to a very high G (mostly 9G in in fighters today) is the single most stand out thing that differentiates between Black out and G LOC.Regarding the Stuka Automatic recovery system Yes I am aware of it as it was reasonably common on a lot of OKL aircraft Ju88, He177,Do 217 etc as well as others. Not so sure it was there to prevent Blacking out though, need to check my references for design intent and design recovery G... ( I think it was 6G) its all there in my HD somewhere
The Zero book here it is:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... &x=53&y=13
- Davew - 10.03.2009
Thanks for that Zulu... I'll definitely have to have a look at it.
Dont know about the JU88 etc but the Stuka certainly had it to prevent black out.
Thanks for the reference though... will go look it up
- American - 10.03.2009
Well being that you already have been throught a grey out and ect. I guess it's fair to say your the judge to say if it should be modded or not (I assume not from your previous post.
As for the stuka I think I remeber reading about dive bombers and they did explain that the stuka had a autorecovery system to prevent the pilot from crashing into the groud. I can probably assume it's stuppost to stop them from hitting the ground due to the g forces althought it could also be because it becomes harder to pull the stick the faster you go. I read account about how hard it was for SBD Pilot's to pull out. Assuming that g forces aren't the only thing making it difficult.