Eluding dive attack and scissoring - Printable Version

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Eluding dive attack and scissoring - BillSwagger - 25.06.2009

You should have a good amount of altitude under you before attempting this maneuver. At least 4000M, but more is better.

Sometimes you are high up like that, and you come across another pilot with much more altitude.

The thing i've learned to do is keep my speed (TAS) above 600Kph, so if i have to drop a bit of altitude to do so i will, and level out at 600kph.

The attacker will still circle above you to line up his pass.
You can continue to circle under him so he is forced to make a steeper dive, or he will most likely continue to circle, but up high like that its best to save your speed and not turn unless you are in danger of attack.

If he makes his pass correctly he would prefer to get some separation and go into a shallow dive and attack from angles that aren't forcing him to dive steeper than 30 degrees.


If he pounces on you from above or from a much shallower angle, try to go into a shallow dive before he is closer than 3km to get your speed up and reduce his closure rate.
(see below)




You will see the distance meeter. When he gets to 1km.... you will chop throttle and extend combat flaps, and bank hard and turn.




You should be versed in when you black out, because you need to be effective at riding that edge to be a good pilot. You will be able to turn sharper with out blacking out provided you chopped throttle. Combat flaps will aid in slowing you down and help you turn with out stalling.




If he is diving on you or coming at you from a higher angle, you can pull upward in the middle of the turn and level out or even point the nose up slightly to slow down more.

You will see him trying to bank with you, and if he does he will black out, and if he doesn't he will shoot by on the outside of your turn.





If you time it right, or anticipate when he has broken off his attack, you can roll back, pouring on the throttle and catch him as he extends.





You would only have a 2 or 3 second snap shot, so your ability to get him in your site will depend on how you practice.





Please keep in mind the technique is for ideal circumstances, but you will be able to use it as part of vocabulary of moves and maneuvers.

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- FiBriZZo - 25.06.2009

u obviously havent tried this against a Focke-Wulf... no matter what u do ure dead. FW-190 can follow any maneuver u do. this only works against slow high speed turners like Bf, zero, P47 etc. any 190, P51, spit, tempest will eat your maneuver for breakfast but nice utopia though.

btw i liked the best "the chop throttle open combat flaps" part. yes mate make yourself even slower hanging aimbag for the mighty dual mk108s u need to make speed to increase your opponents deflection thus making it harder to track u and to keep the necessary lead on you without blackout.
maybe works on n00bs but any semi-pro kills u
S!

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- Erg./JG54_crazty - 25.06.2009

Thats all bul*****s no hard feelings BillSwagger but depends the server .... with full real settings you cant do this magician tricks "turn exactly the correct time open flaps and turn when it need it to avoid some one who dives" and opposite the diver plane almost never in full real settings server can folow you if you reverse your direction and dive quick ,even if the pilot is an ace and play 24/7 the day IL2 can follow you...... now if you fly in a server like AAA with out cocpit on its your destiny to die like that

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- P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole - 25.06.2009

It's an interesting idea, although if your opponent isn't obliging in doing exactly what your tactics stipulate he does then it probably wouldn't work. I can't say i've circled above somoene to line up my perfect pass, i'm too much of an opportunist to grab what I can get (which seems to work well enough).

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- RichardH - 25.06.2009

P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole Wrote:It's an interesting idea, although if your opponent isn't obliging in doing exactly what your tactics stipulate he does then it probably wouldn't work. I can't say i've circled above somoene to line up my perfect pass, i'm too much of an opportunist to grab what I can get (which seems to work well enough).

Does it work with women as well? :lol:


Sorry, i just had to

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- spitfire13 - 25.06.2009

LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:

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- JAMF - 25.06.2009

[Semi OT] BillSwagger, if your system can handle it, you should change the "LandGeom=" value in the conf.ini to 3. It will give you a far horizon and remove that cylinder of fog.

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- BillSwagger - 25.06.2009

wow !!

i sure got a lot of barking for this one.

Well.
I think its a notable maneuver, and again, it takes practice to get the timing down.

As for effectiveness it will depend on altitude, and plane set, although, in an F4U-1c the move IS EFFECTIVE against the Folke Wolf and P-51, so don't try to kid me. I do it all the time and Id be willing to demonstrate, except that if you were anticipating it, then obviously it ruins its effectiveness.
Most pilots don't anticipate it, so they follow into the turn and square up trying to get a shot in.
For that reason it is effective. If an FW was foolish enough to follow he would black out, and if he didnt black out then you weren't diving fast enough to force a higher speed pass.


The key is being at the necessary altitude,,,,, 4000M+. The maneuver is less effective with less speed, and of course less altitude.

Full Switch settings are as much of a challenge, but if you practice your timing on open pit servers, then using the maneuver on a Full Switch server still has its place. I've hopped in a Hellcat, and done this various times only to see a zero swing by me on the outside of the turn into my gun path.

I cant promise you would always be as accurate, because you cant see through your airplane, nor track your opponent as easily, but getting out of the way of his attack is more than possible, and success would also fall on plane set and altitude, and most importantly airspeed.
Playing on Full Switch makes me feel like i have bigger balls too, but you should look in your pants, and you'll see they are the same size.

I know you probably would like to rip apart that opinion, too, but it is largely based on my experience, and i only offer this as a demonstration for newbie pilots to learn., even if its just getting the steep turn down to dodge a B and Z like attack.

As one gets more familiar with the different planes it also becomes necessary to recognize when you need to bank and turn. Obviously there is more room to breath if being attacked by a P-47 than say a Spitfire, but it is still a successful way to dodge an attack of that nature from a Spitfire, while flying a P-47...
I will also demonstrate.

I thought it was a better tactic than going into a snap roll, and praying for a miss, which i see all too often.

The move is made to bleed the energy of the attacker and bring him down to even terms, however flight characteristics of many planes change as you get higher in altitude.


In the above sequence, i was actually dodging two P-47s escorting b-29s.
They were trading off, and i was able to do this move several times with out being hit.
They also became more cautious after i was able to dupe them into over shooting into my gun path a couple times.

Like any smart pilot, it isn't a one trick, life saving maneuver that you rely on, but a combination of maneuvers and awareness that keep you in the game.

So take it for what it is and add it to your vocab, or....dismiss it as crap.

I would still recommend it to anyone new who is looking to expand their skills.

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- BillSwagger - 25.06.2009

RichardH Wrote:

P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole Wrote:It's an interesting idea, although if your opponent isn't obliging in doing exactly what your tactics stipulate he does then it probably wouldn't work. I can't say i've circled above somoene to line up my perfect pass, i'm too much of an opportunist to grab what I can get (which seems to work well enough).

Does it work with women as well? :lol:


Sorry, i just had to

I'm no expert on this one, and i think many great thinkers of our time have tried to answer this.

I can only offer that dodging a woman, requires another woman, and almost always leaves you worse off than before, unless of course she is hotter and can cook better than the previous woman.

Still its best to not play with fire.

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- P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole - 25.06.2009

RichardH Wrote:Does it work with women as well? :lol:

hahaha, tell you what, if you wanting dating tips, i suggest you ask phillip.ed, i hear he's a bit of a player, if y'know what i mean, eh? Say n'more, say no more, a nod's as good as a wink, as they say!

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- Guest - 25.06.2009

P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole Wrote:

RichardH Wrote:Does it work with women as well? :lol:

hahaha, tell you what, if you wanting dating tips, i suggest you ask phillip.ed, i hear he's a bit of a player, if y'know what i mean, eh? Say n'more, say no more, a nod's as good as a wink, as they say!

Which one told you that Mog? :wink: It's hard to remember so many names... 8)

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- P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole - 25.06.2009

philip.ed Wrote:

P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole Wrote:

RichardH Wrote:Does it work with women as well? :lol:

hahaha, tell you what, if you wanting dating tips, i suggest you ask phillip.ed, i hear he's a bit of a player, if y'know what i mean, eh? Say n'more, say no more, a nod's as good as a wink, as they say!

Which one told you that Mog? :wink: It's hard to remember so many names... 8)

:lol:

I have it on good authority from HM the Queen. She likes to keep up with the latest gos'.

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- JAMF - 25.06.2009

P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole Wrote:... if y'know what i mean, eh? Say n'more, say no more, a nod's as good as a wink, as they say!

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- nzwilliam - 25.06.2009

Everyone has their own preferences and knocking another persons settings preference isn't constructive. I'm more interested in learning about differing opinions for and against BillSwagger's (or anyone else's tactics for that matter) and if you don't use this tactic - what do you do instead and why?

Just my 2cents....

Doesn't hurt to have this manouver up your sleave, more devious tricks=longer life hopefully. I do something similar occasionally when jumped, but it certainly ain't recomended when your adversery has a wingman coming in right behind. 1st guy won't even bother trying to make the turn causing a loss in energy, he'll go zooming past and regain alt, wingman has the time to correct his flightpath to compensate...boom - you're toast.

The great open/closed cockpit debate has been going since the very beginning, the fact is, effective open cockpit manouvers ARE very different from those effective in a closed cockpit. Screwing up an enemy's shot in open cockpit involves out performing your opponent's aircraft's abilities, reflexes and skill to prevent him getting a bead on you long enough to put a round into you and if you can - reverse the situation. In a closed cockpit you need to do all of the above plus A) you can't necessarily see him, and definitly won't see him throughout the whole defensive manouver and B) you can use tactics to ensure he looses sight of you long enough to change direction and catch him off balance (quick nose down, roll and scissors often does the trick). That said, you'll still be in trouble if he has a wingman and you don't.

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- P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole - 25.06.2009

Haha, yes, you found my inspiration!

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