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Reasons why experimental and 'what if' aircraft is worth it! - Printable Version

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Reasons why experimental and 'what if' aircraft is worth it! - Chaoic16 - 20.07.2009

There have been many of debates about this subject and how a lot of you want to have historical only while a lot of you also want to have an alternative historical (expimental and 'what if') aircraft in IL-2 1946. Let me tell you the reason why I believe in, not only flying historical aircraft, but having an experiences flying an alternative historical aircraft included. You see, I have this philosophy... In order to learn about history in an expanded way, especially having greater fun with it, is to have an alternative history included where we would learn about history and experience these virtually in multi-dimension ways instead of single 'linear' way.

We, military aviator fan, always have many questions about 'what if', and how would have it happened if that 'what if' ever happened in realistic way? We often have been not so satisfied with the questions, due to lack of answers to them. Besides, experiencing an alternative history within history virtually, is what allow us to experience an unique things, along having a great 'unique' fun like never before.

Being a simmer for over 14 years, I have find it very frustrating when each next generation of simulators only have included historical aircraft included, without any of an alternative historical aircraft included. Because of that, I often have many of an empty answers to many of my 'what if' questions. Before any of you ask me, 'how can we find flight model for 'what if aircraft' if there is no data for it?"

That is where I come in. I have written the theories on how to find best 'predicted' flight model for any an alternative historical aircraft where it can determine how would have aircraft flown? Of course, there is no such thing as 100 percent accurate flight model, but there is no perfect flight model for any aircraft either. But its better than nothing, besides, as long they are modeled realistically as if they would have been likely to 'behave', that is something this community would seek for right?

We are living in a era where there is several powerful software out there that can determine how would have aircraft fly, based on their shapes... similar to air-tunnel testing (airflow) virtually unlike in the old simulator day when the software were primitive compared to modern software. Because of that, its CAN be done, if we are willing to find the ways! For more information on these specific softwares can be found at this thread:

Theories of finding 'predicted' flight model for 1946 planes.

viewtopic.php?t=7634

Even if it may be sometime disappointing for 'what if' aircraft, its better having one with best flight model (non biased) available, even if its not nearly perfect than not having one at all. Besides, there are many of us that always have so much of desires of being able to fly 'what if' aircraft that have never had any chance to be flown when they were stuck on drawing papers, in order, to satisfy our unanswered questions. Even if the flight model for 'what if' may be flawed or not, with the methods of using several powerful tools available that will calculate the flight model, these 'what if' aircraft will be able to have best predicted and yet, non-biased flight modeling. I would rather to have these kind of flight model than not having one at all. And that is why I always believe that it is worth to have an alternative histories with many 'what if' aircraft being made where it would enable many of us to enjoy and have an unique experiences like never before!

Finally, not only these tools can be used for predicting experimental and 'what if' aircraft, these tools also can be used for fixing flight model for every aircraft that is included in IL-2 1946 and add-on aircraft that is currently available in new slot, along with add-on aircraft that is being WIP for this simulator.

Now lets use Go-229 as an example. Go-229 may have been death-trap if flown at violent turning where it is easy to get into yaw issues where the rudder and spoiler can't handle. The pilot would be forced to do what is known as 'tap dancing' with the rudder to keep Go-229 pointing forward as an example. But keep in mind, we still would want to experience the struggling of piloting that aircraft, knowing that we have experienced flying these virtually. That is what simulator is also all about, not just for having fun time flying them, but experiencing and see what it is like flying many different experimental aircraft and see if it would of been a successful aircraft or not.

But you also MUST remember that there was many of operated aircraft that was also death traps but it doesn't prevent pilots from constantly flying these aircraft. B-26 is good example, these aircraft was known as 'widow maker' because they bought deaths to pilots and yet, the military kept her flying and have these aircraft being improved.

However, having non-restricted way to experience many thing virtually in different alternative way is what would allow us to learn something alto more about different aircraft designs. For example say, I am a pilot of Go229 and want to test the flight in that. If I realize that I would crash sometime due to issues with aircraft design, I would be happy knowing I have virtually experienced flying and struggle with that aircraft. Same thing would apply for other aircraft with many design that have either successful or failure design.

Like I said, its better to have aircraft of any design and fly it than not having one at all which would left us unsatisfying, empty answers to our unanswered questions of 'what if' alternative histories. This is WHY history of WWII military aviator can go along very well with an alternative historical air crafts. WE should NOT be afraid to explore all areas and discuss what we experience flying any historical and alternative historical aircraft from what we have learned from it. This is where we would the idea of improving the understanding how each both historical and alternative historical aircraft (experimental and 'what if') aircraft would have flown.

Finally, there must be BALANCE on how much historical and alternative historical aircraft being made over time for IL-2 1946 where we should manage to keep balance where there are larger or equal numbers of historical aircraft add-on aircraft being made compared to alternative historical aircraft being made for a start. And at the same time, there also must be balance on how much historical and alternative aircraft being made for each nations over time before adding more add-on of both type of add-on aircraft. For example, we dont want to have too many of experimental and 'what if' Luftwaffe aircraft with tiny numbers of US, UK, and USSR We want to have balanced numbers of both historical and experimental and 'what if' aircraft of what each nations have in IL-2 1946s have before adding a lot more numbers of add-on aircraft.


Chaoic out...

- mig88 - 20.07.2009

Hear! Hear! Ye sir, I agree.

One small point though: there are more German what-ifs and prototypes than those of the other nations put together!

- Chaoic16 - 20.07.2009

I understand that you dont like an alternative history, I respect that. You are entitled to your own opinion, my intention of this thread is to bring alot of information about why and how it is already more than possible for alternative historical aircraft being made in best 'predicted' flight model where they can come together with historical aircraft.

Wink


Chaoic out...

- Chaoic16 - 20.07.2009

mig88 Wrote:Hear! Hear! Ye sir, I agree.

One small point though: there are more German what-ifs and prototypes than those of the other nations put together!

True that and I agree with that, but at least, we should have balance on our 'focus' on which aircraft that we should work on as next project for IL-2 1946. Besides, from 1946 to 50s, the number of US, UK, and USSR number of experimental and 'what if' aircraft (based on document) increased in great numbers.


Chaoic out...

to - P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole - 20.07.2009

You're entitled to your own oppinion, and, as this a discussion of such things, you're more than welcome to post your own oppinion. However, comments like
Quote:They are not worthy to be on MY hard drive
are simply inflamatory and unconstructive. They only really invite a negetive response. So I'd ask you to keep what you say civil and to refrain from such unecessary comments.

Thanks!
Regards, Mog

- mig88 - 20.07.2009

Indeed, if you expand the period to cover the late 1940s then yes, the number of paper planes and prototypes do even out although I might point out that many (but not all) concepts and ideas used German paper projects and prototypes as starting points.

Anyhow, as I stated before, I agree with your points and welcome any aircraft in the what if and prototype category into the game. There is room for all (providing your hard drive can take it!) and negative comments like the above are unnecessary.

- Guest - 20.07.2009

...'what if' planes? bring. them. on.... Big Grin
if somebody makes 'em, i will fly them. no if's about that Big Grin :wink:

- Chaoic16 - 20.07.2009

mig88 Wrote:Indeed, if you expand the period to cover the late 1940s then yes, the number of paper planes and prototypes do even out although I might point out that many (but not all) concepts and ideas used German paper projects and prototypes as starting points.

Anyhow, as I stated before, I agree with your points and welcome any aircraft in the what if and prototype category into the game. There is room for all (providing your hard drive can take it!) and negative comments like the above are unnecessary.

Yes that is true as well, because majority designs of aircraft that came out after World War II are based on German design, For example, sweep wing, foward sweep wing, and moving sweep wings. But for 'flying wing', German came up with it in late 1930s, but at the same time, US also came up with their own flying wing inspirited by german flying wing. And can you imagine, flying different flyng wings developed by US and German in IL-2 1946 with proper flight model (including best predicted one for an alternative historical aircraft) and compare how they difference from each other virtually in IL-2 1946? That would be quite interesting experiences.


Chaoic out...

- mig88 - 20.07.2009

That would be great!!

- ojcar - 20.07.2009

I like planes. I like them a lot. I like Sci-fi also and what if History. I like true History also. So not problem about that, But I have a little question:
There are a lot of "what if" planes with their "what" if FM/DM. But I'm sure that a lot of those "best predicted FMs" will tell you that the plane simply can't fly or that the plane will be a death trap. Then what? We have some planes impossible to fly in real life, and Oleg simply gave us a cheated FM, not a "best predicted FM". Examples?

-Lerche can't fly in real life
-Ta-183 would be so unstable that will be a death trap
-Ho-229 would have a hugue lot of problems as well

What about you having modelled during months your "realistic what if" plane and then the FM tell you that the plane can't fly???? Are you going to make a faux FM? A faux FM in a What if plane seems as worth to me as modelling a X-wing or a Galactica Viper. Some people can model the Enterprise for me? This would be more Sci-fi than What if History.


Of course the moddeler can make the plane He likes and I'll be very grateful with that. I'm a "Wings over..." series fan after all, and these series have all kind of planes, but you understand my point?

- Chaoic16 - 20.07.2009

ojcar Wrote:I like planes. I like them a lot. I like Sci-fi also and what if History. I like true History also. So not problem about that, But I have a little question:
There are a lot of "what if" planes with their "what" if FM/DM. But I'm sure that a lot of those "best predicted FMs" will tell you that the plane simply can't fly or that the plane will be a death trap. Then what? We have some planes impossible to fly in real life, and Oleg simply gave us a cheated FM, not a "best predicted FM". Examples?

-Lerche can't fly in real life
-Ta-183 would be so unstable that will be a death trap
-Ho-229 would have a hugue lot of problems as well

What about you having modelled during months your "realistic what if" plane and then the FM tell you that the plane can't fly???? Are you going to make a faux FM? A faux FM in a What if plane seems as worth to me as modelling a X-wing or a Galactica Viper. Some people can model the Enterprise for me? This would be more Sci-fi than What if History.


Of course the moddeler can make the plane He likes and I'll be very grateful with that. I'm a "Wings over..." series fan after all, and these series have all kind of planes, but you understand my point?

First at all, Oleg many FM have s many erros and flaws, so to me, it appear that Oleg FM may have been 'biased. It is NOT wise to 'assume' that we WOULD make the same mistakes as Oleg do if we find a best 'predicted' flight model in different methods in 'non-biased' as possible. Secondly, using 'X-wing' to compare with 'what if' aircraft is what I strongly DISAGREE with. And thirdly, I have written in my post above that, there is no such thing as perfect flight model that would be 100 percent like real life nor there will ever be.

X-Wing uses anti-gravity or simliar engine that doesnt exist in World war II so why bring X-Wing in here? Even if there may be some 'flaws' in best predicted flight model, these flight model will be closest to 'how would have they flown' as realistic as possible instead of having 'anti-gravity' engine like X-Wing do. I have been tired of people of bring 'star war' non-sense into an alternative historical aircraft.

I am going to quote my own words to explain about problems of Ho-229 (Go-229) and why they are worth it:

Quote:Not only these tools can be used for predicting experimental and 'what if' aircraft, these tools also can be used for fixing flight model for every aircraft that is included in IL-2 1946 and add-on aircraft that is currently available in new slot, along with add-on aircraft that is being WIP for this simulator.

Now lets use Go-229 as an example. Go-229 may have been death-trap if flown at violent turning where it is easy to get into yaw issues where the rudder and spoiler can't handle. The pilot would be forced to do what is known as 'tap dancing' with the rudder to keep Go-229 pointing forward as an example. But keep in mind, we still would want to experience the struggling of piloting that aircraft, knowing that we have experienced flying these virtually. That is what simulator is also all about, not just for having fun time flying them, but experiencing and see what it is like flying many different experimental aircraft and see if it would of been a successful aircraft or not.

But you also MUST remember that there was many of operated aircraft that was also death traps but it doesn't prevent pilots from constantly flying these aircraft. B-26 is good example, these aircraft was known as 'widow maker' because they bought deaths to pilots and yet, the military kept her flying and have these aircraft being improved.

However, having non-restricted way to experience many thing virtually in different alternative way is what would allow us to learn something alto more about different aircraft designs. For example say, I am a pilot of Go229 and want to test the flight in that. If I realize that I would crash sometime due to issues with aircraft design, I would be happy knowing I have virtually experienced flying and struggle with that aircraft. Same thing would apply for other aircraft with many design that have either successful or failure design.

Like I said, its better to have aircraft of any design and fly it than not having one at all which would left us unsatisfying, empty answers to our unanswered questions of 'what if' alternative histories. This is WHY history of WWII military aviator can go along very well with an alternative historical air crafts. WE should NOT be afraid to explore all areas and discuss what we experience flying any historical and alternative historical aircraft from what we have learned from it. This is where we would the idea of improving the understanding how each both historical and alternative historical aircraft (experimental and 'what if') aircraft would have flown.

Same thing applies to Ta-183 being 'flying trap' if it is the case.


Chaoic out...

- Saburo Sakai - 20.07.2009

"Experimental?" maybe. there where many planes that made flights but did not get into service, so why not indeed.

"What if?" i am TOTALLY against.
what if the germans invented the death star ? or laser weapons ? see my point, what if holds no boundaries and would kill the sim by turning it into a farce of spaceships and such. if you want sci fi planes, go play star trek or something.

"the game engine makes it possible....." so what, the game engine makes it possible to race bikes, and add the x-wing star fighter, but would you want to do that il2 !

then there is the old, "its up to the modellers what they make........". too true, but i would hope that the modellers would see the sense of not wanting to destroy the game by adding over the top planes that dont belong in a ww2 sim, for that is what this is really, a ww2 sim, well thats why i bought it, to fly ww2 prop planes. i have falcon4 af and lomac for jets and blackshark for helos.

There will always be people to argue the for's and against's for this subject so dont bite me for arguing against the what if planes, it is after all, just a discussion.

:wink:

- Chaoic16 - 20.07.2009

Saburo Sakai Wrote:"Experimental?" maybe. there where many planes that made flights but did not get into service, so why not indeed.

"What if?" i am TOTALLY against.
what if the germans invented the death star ? or laser weapons ? see my point, what if holds no boundaries and would kill the sim by turning it into a farce of spaceships and such. if you want sci fi planes, go play star trek or something.

"the game engine makes it possible....." so what, the game engine makes it possible to race bikes, and add the x-wing star fighter, but would you want to do that il2 !

then there is the old, "its up to the modellers what they make........". too true, but i would hope that the modellers would see the sense of not wanting to destroy the game by adding over the top planes that dont belong in a ww2 sim, for that is what this is really, a ww2 sim, well thats why i bought it, to fly ww2 prop planes. i have falcon4 af and lomac for jets and blackshark for helos.

There will always be people to argue the for's and against's for this subject so dont bite me for arguing against the what if planes, it is after all, just a discussion.

:wink:

That was most non-sense silly thing I ever heard... "Star Trek" and "Star War' never have something to do with this, when it come to determining 'predicted' flight model for alternative historical aircraft in most realistic way possible. The point of this debates is about adding experimental and 'what if' aircraft based on documents of an aeronautical that officially design the aircraft that have not made it past to prototype stages. There is no such thing as 'star trek' and 'star war' non-sense in this. REMEMBER if you don't want to fly these alternative historical planes, you DONT have to fly them nor download these files. I find your posts quite negative and is non-constructive when you stated this:

Quote:what if the germans invented the death star ? or laser weapons ? see my point, what if holds no boundaries and would kill the sim by turning it into a farce of spaceships and such. if you want sci fi planes, go play star trek or something.

That was negative and non-constructive statement and I don't appericate it when someone tell me to play these 'sci-fi' when I have stated countless of time that it's about adding 'expimental and 'what if' aircraft in most realistic way witih 'predicted' filght model for IL-2 1946. Besides there was NO laser NOR death star in World War II, including in 'what if' part because German never had plans for these non-sense things. Besides, If we community add 'what if' aircraft based on blueprint, we would do it in 'most realistic way' possible without having any 'laser' and other 'sci fi' non-sense' involved while we follow the patterns of previous developed expimental aircraft that was develope.


Chaoic out...

- Saburo Sakai - 20.07.2009

Chaoic16 Wrote:
Saburo Sakai Wrote:"Experimental?" maybe. there where many planes that made flights but did not get into service, so why not indeed.

"What if?" i am TOTALLY against.
what if the germans invented the death star ? or laser weapons ? see my point, what if holds no boundaries and would kill the sim by turning it into a farce of spaceships and such. if you want sci fi planes, go play star trek or something.

"the game engine makes it possible....." so what, the game engine makes it possible to race bikes, and add the x-wing star fighter, but would you want to do that il2 !

then there is the old, "its up to the modellers what they make........". too true, but i would hope that the modellers would see the sense of not wanting to destroy the game by adding over the top planes that dont belong in a ww2 sim, for that is what this is really, a ww2 sim, well thats why i bought it, to fly ww2 prop planes. i have falcon4 af and lomac for jets and blackshark for helos.

There will always be people to argue the for's and against's for this subject so dont bite me for arguing against the what if planes, it is after all, just a discussion.

:wink:

That was most non-sense silly thing I ever heard... "Star Trek" and "Star War' never have something to do with this, when it come to determining 'predicted' flight model for alternative historical aircraft in most realistic way possible. The point of this debates is about adding experimental and 'what if' aircraft based on documents of an aeronautical that officially design the aircraft that have not made it past to prototype stages. There is no such thing as 'star trek' and 'star war' non-sense in this. REMEMBER if you don't want to fly these alternative historical planes, you DONT have to fly them nor download these files. I find your posts quite negative and is non-constructive when you stated this:

Quote:what if the germans invented the death star ? or laser weapons ? see my point, what if holds no boundaries and would kill the sim by turning it into a farce of spaceships and such. if you want sci fi planes, go play star trek or something.

That was negative and non-constructive statement and I don't appericate it when someone tell me to play these 'sci-fi' when I have stated countless of time that it's about adding 'expimental and 'what if' aircraft in most realistic way witih 'predicted' filght model for IL-2 1946. Besides there was NO laser NOR death star in World War II, including in 'what if' part because German never had plans for these non-sense things.


Chaoic out...

negative, non constructive, nosense and silly, is it really? do you really think that? of course you do, you want to see planes that never existed fly in il2.
it is not silly, what i said was extreme, but it proves that "what if ", as i said, has no boundaries.
i see you did not quote what i said about experimental planes............ i have no problems with them because they did exist, even if it was only on paper, but once you start adding planes that people make up in their own head, thats where the extremities come into play, and before long you WOULD see x-wing fighters and such like. i have seen it happen before and i saw a post on here where there WAS a death star in the game.

viewtopic.php?t=7913&highlight=death+star

- P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole - 20.07.2009

Keep it civil here gents -- debate, yes; argue, no.

Saburo + Chaoic, you're arguing at cross purposes i think: your definitions of a "what-if" aircraft are different; Saburo you see it as an imaginary aircraft, so the possibilities are pretty much endless. Chaoic, i think you see a "what-if" aircraft as an experimental ones with blueprints or whatever, but that never actually flew.. Leastaways, that's the impression i got.