f-86vs mig 15? - Printable Version
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f-86vs mig 15? - Blakeownsu - 18.01.2010
ok let me just start by saying that i hope this is the right form to post this in if not im sorry. also im not trying to start any thing so please no flaming ect. Also im VERY grate full for all the hard work mods have put in to this game. its great they are releasing all these great mods ect and i dont want to sound whiney or any thing lol :p also forgive me spelling im an idiot
ok i down loaded the very cool up2.0 mod and have finally gotten to see something in IL-2 i never thought id see, mig 15's and sabers! but im just wondering if the FM is even close to right. Im no expert but iv seen a lot of documentries and read a lot of things about the migs and sabers. iirc the saber has a slight advantge in both speed and climb at low alt while the mig had it at realy high alt. now in the game im constantly getting owned by the migs. they seem to climb and excelerate like UFO's on crack lol. i mean its not even close at any alt. its almost as bad as trying to fight a 262 in a p51
. even when i take a saber L 1953 vs a 1950 mig. Now im a pretty good pilot. i can take on 4 fw190's a9's ace lv in a 51 or 38 and have little trouble most of the time. so i dont think its that i just suck really bad . The migs just shoot right up from sea LV like a bottle rocket and i just cant keep up what so ever. i tested the top speeds and they are pretty close but the migs are just WAY WAY faster in regards to exceleration! Does any one else have this exp and is it accurite? i mean i cant see how any sabers survived the war if this is even close to what it was like between the two planes. from what iv seen and read itwas suppose to be fairly close between the two planes but in my exp so far with this game / mod its not close at all. And again i hope i dont come off as a ungratefull *** hole. thats not my intent. im very greatfull for all the work these guys have done.
comments please
- Boosher - 19.01.2010
The FM's have been worked on for a very long time. While there may be hiccoughs in any FM here or there, I'm pretty sure I can trust the guys behind the MiG and Sabre FM's to be as close as they can get them to be. I don't mean to sound like an insolent SOB, but what you need to do is learn to fly them. Air Combat in jets in Korea is vastly different from the air combat of prop-driven fighters. The speeds are so immense and time is so spare that, quite simply, if you don't fly right, you're dead. And as the jet age kept building, the performance gap widened between different aircraft. The MiG, for example, climbs like a rocket because it has a powerful engine in a very light frame and hits incredibly hard because of the two 23mm and one 37mm gun in its nose. The Sabre, on the other hand, has better structural integrity and can break the sound barrier in a dive at high alt. Performance-wise, the MiG is the Zeke and the Sabre is the Wildcat. Use each plane to its strengths and don't dare try to push them past their envelope (It's okay to ride the edge, though). These jets won't like you for it.
- _VR_Aristo - 19.01.2010
You're right. The two aircrafts doesn't reflect the reality performance wise. That's why I wrote an e-mail to PeterD about it not so long ago. It was about the performances of the two aircraft in UI 1.2, and as far as I can see, the situation is a little better in UP 2.0. Still no way near where it should be though. Also the absence of G-Suit simulation makes them kind of useless in a high-speed dogfight... Anyways here's the e-mail and the response (I hope PeterD will have no objections to this publication):
2009/11/23
"Hi there,
First I would like to say that these are simply the best aircrafts for the IL-2. None of the others are neither as beatiful nor as detailed, and I do love them, good job.
But, I have realized something which bothered me a great deal, that is the performance comparison between those two aircraft. I believe they're the complete opposite. Historically speaking beacuse of the two nations doctrine of aircraft design, Soviet planes were almost always the most simple and easy-maintainable, and always the most nimble one. Whereas the Americans put an emphasis on speed and power and reliability and survivability, as a consequence, their aircrafts were heavier and better protected, but faster and more powerful. The same goes for Mig-15 and F-86 as well. Mig-15 was nimble, could turn really good(compared to jet aircrafts) and climb really good, because it was lighter, but the F-86 was faster and tougher. Although the F model got close to Migs turn and climb performance, with its larger wings, more powerful and more reliable engine and with its "flying-wing", Mig was still the better one on those areas. Whereas in the game we see the opposite, now please don't see this as a complaint letter from an ungreatful sponger. I simply want what is best, to be even better and realistic. I have flown many sorties with both of these planes against one another, and every time I flew with F-86 I found myself watching the Mig just fly away, turn, come back and do whatever it wishes to do on me. I mean the difference couldn't be any obvious regarding speed. Mig also climbs better and I have nothing to say to that, as it was true. But turn-rate wise, although slightly, the F-86 is better. Which was not the case whatsoever, the last thing the F-86 pilots wanted to do was to get dragged into a turn fight, because they knew they would lose it instantly. Instead they used their better tactics (which isn't simulatable in-game)and their obvious speed superiority (kinda like the WWII era against Japanese).
I hope you will give it at least some consideration to do more research and maybe fix the issue in the alpha version. Yes, I know it's a beta!
And thank you, for doing the most detailed aircraft in the game, and I mean that (seriously, my jaw dropped when I saw the machine guns and the engine AND the bullet holes when they jumped on me. Does the airframe really actually deform in a way that you can see the bullets entry angle?!?!?!).
Just think about it,
and keep up the good work,
_VR_Aristo "
2009/11/23
"Hello _VR_Aristo,
Thanks for the compliments, I am glad you like the aircrafts!
About the differences in performance, you are right: the MiG-15 as it is right now (used with Unifed Installer 1.2) is currently too good in some areas. I wasn't involved in the Flight Model development of the Sabre nor the MiG-15, however they have been reviewed, tweaked, and improved considerably for the next version.
This is what the author of the soon-to-come Flightmodels had to say about them:
Update - Quite Lengthy But Be Patient, in response to other posts in another area regarding flaws
Firstly Hello, I have been dying to post this update for some time now, talk of how accurate the FMs are not entirely true due to recent findings, fist note
Super Sonic fighters are fighters that fly in level flight above Mach 1.2, The F-86 us not really a true supersonic fighter, It spends most of its time in transonic flight and cannot reach Mach 1 under its own engine power only in a shallow dive and also easier at higher alts doing the same.
The speed of sound or Mach as you know is different at all altitudes and is measured in TAS, therefore you will appear to reach mach at lower IAS speeds at higher alt. the use of TAS now is important as is the need for a mach gauge. Descriptions of pilot reports can be mirrored in 1:1 human combat.
The original FMs that you guys are flying that have been reported as realistic, at the time of creation they appeared so however, last month I was able to load these aircraft into IL-2 Compare and I noticed straight away the issues. The original FMs were done mainly by Hunin and additional help my self with detail and facts. Testing, pre release FM and other tweaks currently in the FMs Howlin, this was a long time ago to think back and I am certain that each of us had a fair share of work into the original FM (no offense intended at any one mentioned or not mentioned). Since then I have spent many hours in very little days correcting these. I have extensively researched these and have built a very large library of details. The FMs have currently been completely redone by myself with testing by certain friends. My notes on the current FMs and problems are:
o Currently the climb rate of MiG-15Bis is closer to that of a MiG-17 (65m/s), This should be 50m/s based on the earlier 1949 April/July variant, this has been corrected however it is 53.5m/s close enough, I will explain why this compromise later.
o The roll rate of the MiG-15Bis out rolled that of the F-86, this is wrong. The F-86 should roll at 180 deg/s or 2 seconds for a complete roll at all speeds except high speed where it drops to around 3 seconds. The Mig-15 and Bis should roll at 90 degrees a second or roll in 4 seconds, at high speed the MiG-15 would lock up completely however the Bis had boosted ailerons and could manage 6 seconds, the Sabre now out rolls the MiG twice as fast at all speeds, Correct
o The Sabre if rolled continuously for too long (many fast rolls) at low speed will eventually start effects similar to that experienced on the MiG-21 "Auto Rotation", this does not mean it will auto roll, it means it will go into a weird barrel roll where the nose eventually pitches up into the centre causing an easily recoverable flat spin, this was not deliberate but a by product of reaching the limits of FMs which are designed for props, the game has limits with its FM I am not sure it can handle modern complex supersonic fighter flight models, as the performance curve cannot be as accurately defined as say a P-51 Prop, these FMs will do ok with in the current limits, any more and you would have to compromise on areas.
o The Sabre can and does out dive a MiG-15Bis however the MiG-15Bis will out dive the F-86 in an initial dive but the F-86 will accelerate past the MiG and has higher speed tolerance in a dive, it will not brake apart so easily, Correct
o The Sabre A-5 now climbs at its correct climb speed at 38ms, the F-86F-25E (Early Slatted bigger engine) and F-86F-25L (Late with the '6-3' which was retro fitted to earlier models to give it a fixed slat and larger root and wing area) 47m/s
o Power to weight ratio is very important now that you are flying jets just as much as you would think the turn is and climb, it tells you how well you accelerate and recover from a turn fight to gain advantage. The MiG-15Bis is more closer to RL than the late Sabres, it has a Power to Weight Ratio of 0.53 isntead of 0.54. Due to the limits of the FM with jets, (I cannot further discuss publicly). Certain things have had to be increased, such as weight, if I was to add any more weight to the MiG-15Bis it would affect the dive and other natural advantages the Sabre has over the MiG-15Bis.
o The Sabre A-5 has a power to weight ratio that is 37.5 same as real life and is quite accurate in performance
o The F-25 due to similar limitations related to the MiG-15Bis it has been refined and has a slightly higher thrust to weight and correct climb, this does even the odds in the climb much closer.
o The current original MiG-15Bis and Sabre A-5 fly far too fast at all heights, accelerate too well and black out easily. Corrected
o Peter D after a discussion between each other and extensive research on the high transonic speed effects that each plane suffered from, has created some very nice and interesting effects that are close to what the reports have said. The F-86A-5 like the MiG-15 locks up at high speed at high altitude this is due to it having a regular tail, roll was unaffected. The aircraft now loses not all but much control in pitch at high speed and high altitude which resulted in the tactic of USAF pilots dragging MiG pilots 25,000ft and lower, but as you get lower into the thicker air this compressibility is not such an issue and on the deck it is with out issue at all. The MiG-15Bis is much more nimble higher up and the Sabre A-5 can only fight it at low to mid speeds at low to mid heights, correct.
In level powered flight the F-86 will reach supersonic flight especially at higher altitudes. This has since been corrected, The Sabre will only ever reach Mach 1 in a shallow dive and its energy retention will allow it to hold that for longer periods of time. The buffet you experience is the high transonic affects by PeterD, it does not mean you will rip a wing but you can safely fly at mach 1.1 but at 1.2 at sea level you will lose control surfaces, buffet will become much more severe at the point of max speed. The MiG-15Bis will brake apart just above mach but as said below will not be able to achieve near mach in a controlled dive at all.
The F-86F-25E and L have the flying tail or I forget the name, where the elevators can still be operated but the complete horizontal stabilizer can pitch when needed at high speed, this reduces the compressibility issues greatly giving it much better pitch control at high alt and high speed, the aircraft is still no where near as stiff or light as it is at low alt but very stable at all speeds/heights and is highly maneuverable at higher alts.
The MiG-15Bis in real life would not break apart when it hit the sound barrier it can continue diving, however what happens is there is complete loss of roll and pitch control, complete lawn dart,
Re: f-86vs mig 15? - Cracken - 19.01.2010
Blakeownsu Wrote:ok let me just start by saying that i hope this is the right form to post this in if not im sorry. also im not trying to start any thing so please no flaming ect. Also im VERY grate full for all the hard work mods have put in to this game. its great they are releasing all these great mods ect and i dont want to sound whiney or any thing lol :p also forgive me spelling im an idiot
ok i down loaded the very cool up2.0 mod and have finally gotten to see something in IL-2 i never thought id see, mig 15's and sabers! but im just wondering if the FM is even close to right. Im no expert but iv seen a lot of documentries and read a lot of things about the migs and sabers. iirc the saber has a slight advantge in both speed and climb at low alt while the mig had it at realy high alt. now in the game im constantly getting owned by the migs. they seem to climb and excelerate like UFO's on crack lol. i mean its not even close at any alt. its almost as bad as trying to fight a 262 in a p51
And again i hope i dont come off as a ungratefull *** hole. thats not my intent. im very greatfull for all the work these guys have done.
comments please
This gentleman is right. I had the same opinion. (However I said: "It is like the latest Audi (Mig) against Mr. Bean's greenish car (Sabre)") I have had a dicsussions with Cirx in SAS forum, and he shared my observations and promised to take a look at the buttons (the file that influences FM). So we have just to wait for the new SAS buttons.
People should try to catch a Mig in a Sabre before making any judgements.
Taken from: http://www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html
The MiG could fly higher, 50,000 vs. 42,000 feet, offering a distinct advantage at the start of combat. In level flight, their maximum speeds were comparable - about 660 MPH.. The MiG could climb better, the Sabre was more maneuverable and could dive better. For weapons, it carried two 23mm and one 37mm cannon, compared to the Sabre's six .50 caliber machine guns. The American weapons, while not packing as much of a punch, carried many more rounds and were aimed with a superior gunsight. Maintenance of the Sabre was a headache and a large fraction of the UN air strength was "in the shop" at any time.
Hope the guys here won't skin me alive for posting the link to SAS here.
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,97.0.html
- 57thgrp - 19.01.2010
Sorry, but what in the heck does FM mean. Sorry for the ignorance.
- Cracken - 19.01.2010
Flight Model - it is hidden in the buttons.
More info:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,21.0.html
- Blakeownsu - 20.01.2010
thx for the replies guys ill get to reading asap. one quicky. is there any good saber and or mig cockpits out? if so are they hard to install over the UM2.0 are they stable game wise?
Re: f-86vs mig 15? - ACE-OF-ACES - 20.01.2010
Blakeownsu Wrote:Im no expertDon't feel bad about that..
In that no one here is an expert!
Oh sure allot of folks claim to be experts
But I have yet to see any that I would consider to be experts
And that is not to say I am an expert
All I am saying is I know enough to know that I am not an expert but know enough to know one when I see one
And I have yet to see one
All I do see is allot of folks, like yourself, making observations based off their experiences while flying
And like I said I know enough to know those kinds of observations say more about the relative pilot skill than the accuracy of the FM
Statements like 'I read allot ' or 'I watched allot of or 'It climbed like a UFO' or 'It went passed me like I was standing still' are neat but say nothing about the accuracy of the FM
The only thing that says anything about the accuracy of the FM is to do the same 'controlled' test method of the in-game plane and compare those results to the 'controlled' test method done on the real plane.
That removes the relative pilot skill factor and focus on the planes performance.
With that said there were three types of control tests they did back than
1) Top Speed per Altitude (TSPA)
2) Rate of Climb (ROC)
3) Time to Climb (TTC)
Sadly roll rate testing and turn rate testing was not done on all aircraft so you will have trouble finding that kind of info
But those three tests will cover 90% of the FM accuracy
The trick is to read up on how those controlled tests were preformed such that you can do the same type of test in the game
The next trick is to record the data (alt, speed, roc, etc) during the test so you have something to compare to the real world data
Its that simple
Anything else is just guess work aka whinning
Here is an example of such a comparison I did on the MiG15 awhile back
viewtopic.php?p=268280&highlight=#268280
PS keep in mind that the folks over at UP2.0 have been known to make changes to the FMs of mod planes (and some of the stock/orginal IL2 planes) without without thoroughly testing the change. Worse yet they are known for making changes to a mod's FM without telling the orginal mod maker they are making a change to the/their mod! So there is a good chance that the folks over at UP2.0 'introduced a bug' (a nice way of saying broke) into the orgianl FM done by PeterD/Wolf. Which is why I would recomend you uninstall UP2.0 and use HSFX 4.1. In that UP2.0 is nothing more than HSFX4.1 repackaged with 4 or 5 new slots for some variantes of existing plates and a bunch of un-documented changes to the FMs of some HSFX4.1 planes. That way you know you will be getting the orginal FM from the orginal mod maker!
Rotation and takeoff - goonybird - 21.01.2010
hello, and thanks for the Mig and F-86!
i'm coming from the formation-flight perspective... i'm salivating at the prospects the mig and sabre have for team aerobatics---
i've noticed the tendency for the mig and sabre to leap off the runway on takeoff., which is a concern in formation work
i got the mig settled to a smooth rotation and departure using combat flaps w/ full-down trim & 80% power...
the sabre still loves to leap, though less so, at the same control settings...
was this a tendency in the real aircraft?...if so, so be it, my mouth is shut... or is this another area that needs tweaking?
thanks again for your work, i hope i can do as well on mine... S!
- _VR_Aristo - 21.01.2010
Not sure about the MiG, but I believe the 86 has a tendency to "jump" off the runway with sudden elevator inputs in real life. I personally use a lot of nose-down trimming for take-off and level flight, otherwise it's a beast to control. Athough, giving back a little nose-up trimming helps a lot in a dogfight...
Aristo
- 8FS_Bulau - 21.01.2010
Blakeownsu Wrote:thx for the replies guys ill get to reading asap. one quicky. is there any good saber and or mig cockpits out? if so are they hard to install over the UM2.0 are they stable game wise?
Yes! Freddy, at Histomod site made a beautiful Sabre cockpit, and until recently, you could only get it by installing the Histomod Korea Pack. With his permission, and Peter D's, that cockpit is now available separately:
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,2786.0.html
- goonybird - 22.01.2010
been testing the sabre again, making sure of my stick-handling... with slow, steadily increasing stick pressure, it still wants to jump off at 120kts with full-down trim, combat flaps [for the extra nose-down force] and 80% throttle...
in the mig at those settings, i can feel it getting "light on the wheels" shortly before rotation, but with the sabre, no such indications...
would really appreciate it if you would give takeoff handling another look-see... but again, if that was really the sabre's personality, so be it
thanks much
- _VR_Aristo - 22.01.2010
@goonybird
What you can do is; before take-off, adjust the trim for nose-down(about 5 degrees should be enough), throttle up to 100% but instead of rotating at 120kts, gently apply back pressure on the stick when the aircraft reaches 60kts. You'll notice that the aircraft won't lift off immediately, but after it reaches about 95kts it'll slowly lift off and fly away, "do not rotate at 120kts", at that speed you'll have plenty of air flowing through the tail and even the smallest deflection will have a great effect on the aircraft. Besides, contrary to what you might believe, f-86 and mig-15 have roughly the same take-off speeds as the other piston engined aircraft, "in-game". The same procedure applies for the Mig-15 as well, lots of nose-down trim and gentle elevator deflection at V1(rotation/decision speed).
Remember though, the most important part of this practise is the trim, don't be afraid to use it, and you'll be doing that perfect take-off.
Good luck,
Aristo