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German Planning - caldrail - 02.02.2010

For some time I've known about the secret German plans for Britain should the Operation Seelowe of 1940 follow a victory in the Battle of Britain for the Luftwaffe. It does make sobre reading. All fit males were to be transported to the continent for slave labour, all properties (presumably the expensive ones) were to be parcelled out to German officers and officials, and so on. British life was to be deconstructed completely.

What shocked me was an interview with Ray leoperd, a US Army veteran who fought in the Ardennes of 1944, that I saw on a documentary last night. He was watching a German captive, who eventually approached his captor and asked "Where are you from?" in perfect english.

A little taken aback by the flawless accent, Mr Leoperd replied that he was from America.

"Yes, but where in America?"

North east.

"Where in the north east"?

Connecticut.

"Where in Connecticut?"

Mr Leoperd gave in and said he was from Waterbury.

"Ah yes. Where the river meets the stream."

Somewhat stunned by his expert knowledge, Mr Leoperd asked the German how he knew the area.

"I was trained for the administration."

Administration? What administration?

"We were trained for the German occupation."

Yep. That's right. The Germans had even planned for the administration of captured American territory, though it isn't clear when exactly this training took place. Quite a thought, isn't it?

- CONAN - 02.02.2010

I heard that some weeks ago, in "The War", very good documentary.

Probably! - baronbutcher - 02.02.2010

Probably but not all docs or information is correct. I seen some really bad incorrect so called facts on docs, stats wrong, people statements that don't add up etc. I am not saying what you written is untrue but I also wary of some docs. Most likely Britain would go the same way in treatment as France was. Eastern Europe was generally treated more harsely than Western Europe unless of course one was a saboteurs etc. I read about France (particularly Normandy) being bombed by the Allies and civilains caught up in the bombings (unavoidable!?) and a general anger and dislike of the air raiders by the French populace, also of the myths of the French resistance at least up to 1944 etc. exaggerated not the stuff of hollywood myths and computer games. That's not to say some didn't indeed resist, some just weren't in a position to do so. Also I am not saying the occuppiers were liked but the fact is some of the populace indeed weren't so anti to. History needs balance and what is correct. There is too many myths about past conflicts from by all sides of the fence. Certainately the Axis had to be fought and beaten.

- VonWaffen - 02.02.2010

Hitler never plan anything on the western front, they never even think French and England will have the balls to declar war on germany for invasion of Poland,
Fall gelb (case yellow ) was in fact a operational OKW exercise plan made before war even apen,
Germany don t even have annoff troops to protect is western border during poland invasion ....
Hitler want to expand in the east long time ago ....Never in the west
On the French invasion they don t even espect get on the channel that fast and so easy ,and don t have anymore plans all ready made for this yet....
That s why he was trying hard to bluff England to stop war on this front after French capitulation....
The real truth it when USA get involve in WW2 , Hitler all ready got hard time fighting Russia and England on 3 front getting is ask butt near moscow
and sending everything he can find on the eastern front , I don t think they have spend any soldiers evalable for training on a incredible hypotetic invasion of USA in 1942 and later, then he drain all other fronts to sent them trying to stop russia in the east and spend the last one in the Ardenne...

- caldrail - 04.02.2010

Quote:Hitler never plan anything on the western front, they never even think French and England will have the balls to declar war on germany for invasion of Poland,
Correct, or rather, it was Hitler himself who gambled that the allies wouldn't risk a war over Poland. However, Hitler was only the commander in chief, thus when he made directions about strategy his senior staff did a great deal of planning. They had to. You cannot send millions of men into action on a large scale offensive without some sort of operational plan.

Quote:Fall gelb (case yellow ) was in fact a operational OKW exercise plan made before war even apen,
Quite possibly. But you might like to know that Hitler submitted his own plan for Barbarossa when he didn't like the scheme suggested by his generals, which does indicate planning going on.

Quote:Germany don t even have annoff troops to protect is western border during poland invasion ....
I notice that didn't stop him. He was gambling.

Quote:Hitler want to expand in the east long time ago ....Never in the west
His ambition for lebensraum in the east was well known (he loathed bolshevism), but then why did the bltizkrieg happen? He got the taste for conquest after his first nervous attempts. In any case, he had every intention of creating German dominance in western europe.

Quote:On the French invasion they don t even espect get on the channel that fast and so easy ,and don t have anymore plans all ready made for this yet....
No... Whilst the speed of the advance was indeed a suprise, it wasn't random. Plans were being made and updated very quickly. Operational planning isn't just one man pointing at a map - its a whole pyramid of decision makers taking care of ever finer details on the plan from above.

Quote:That s why he was trying hard to bluff England to stop war on this front after French capitulation....
Given Britains relatively poor performance against modern mechanised forces in the Fall of France, I doubt Hitler was bluffing about attacking Britain. I seem to remember something about Spitfires and Hurricanes round about then Big Grin

Quote:The real truth it when USA get involve in WW2 , Hitler all ready got hard time fighting Russia and England on 3 front getting is ask butt near moscow
and sending everything he can find on the eastern front , I don t think they have spend any soldiers evalable for training on a incredible hypotetic invasion of USA in 1942 and later, then he drain all other fronts to sent them trying to stop russia in the east and spend the last one in the Ardenne...
But the American support for the allies was real and a worry to German planners. The Germans mounted a U-Boat offensive off the coast of America for that very reason, and despite the technological and economic difficulties, they did plan to build a force of bombers with enough range to bomb New York.

Don't forget, the British planned to attack Russia in after the end of the war (operation Unthinkable) and that was no less impossible.

I agree that attacking the US was a low priority, but so what? Plans were still made nonetheless. Remember that by declaring war on the US, it was helping their allies, the Japanese, who knew before Pearl Harbour that a war against America was a dangerous course. That's why Pearl Harbour happened. The Japanese wanted America hamstrung and unable to mount any effective resistance to imperial expansion in the Pacific. With American eyes on Europe, not all of their strength can be brought to bear.

- VonWaffen - 04.02.2010

" but then why did the bltizkrieg happen ?"

Blitzkreg happen after and because England , french and canada declare war to germany. Then they apply case yellow (Manstein operational exercise plan base on ww1)
They don t even espect get on the channel that fast and so easy . That why he stop the panzer division for many day when they join the channel and don t attack dunkerk, Many german infantry troops was still to far and it s well know Hitler didn t want make war with england ,Hitler give this order , he was consider them like a great nation and want them on is side. Guderian and other OKW member take it like a mistake..
Planning going on ...True, they was planning what to do next....Then Goering convince hitler to lunch the luftwaffe on dunkirk....
All the weapons stay on the beach and many soldiers was taken prisionner , but what they do ??? Nothing for many week again England.
They try to convince them to stop war.....But Churchill won t .
Later battle of britain began.....And Sea lion was planing.
Now Hitler know is troops cannot even cross the channel. They can t even win the sky advantage over the crossing point , and it well now the Kriegmarine can t match the Royal Navy....
What he make , He return at is first plans ...Go east...And built the atlantique wall.
Sending almost all is troops in poland for Barbarrosa....
Winter 1941 ,german troops freezing to death in the steps near Moscow, Germany is out of breath , USA get involve in war with Japan...
Hitler declar war to USA to push Japan to send troops again Russia , but Japan won t, then Russia can send many siberian divisions again Germany...
Spring 1942 all the new built force was send to the south east front for the summer offensive to push in the cocassian region and everything fail at stalingrad, he just lost a huge part of is best well traine and experiment troops ....And cannot even send any division to help them.Losing many of is allied troop on the east, romania italie ...
And also cannot send anything more in afrika too , to help Romel and lost all the gain hardly win there , So tell me why knowing your not annoff strong to allready fight in the east front , losing the second (afrika), not even abel to cross a channel , you will spend time training your troops to fight USA across the atlantique ocean ?????? You all ready fight them on two front.....
Germany was planning to make long distance bomber...True,,, but they call them Oral Bombers , and we know were is Oral (in deap russia).....For sure they can reach new york but how they will came back ???? (Maybe they draw some luftwaffe 46 hypotetique weapon and flying saucer but it s not training troops)
They send U-boats in Canadian and American coast that true ,but they was there to sunk boats , not to invade USA.
I don t want to be the black sheep here or fighting no one ,how know maybe this dude telling the truth, I see this TV program too.
OK We also know Hitler was a stupid stategist, but the Wehrmarcht High command was one of the best know until these days , they lost it s true but they fight again all the world in the same time having a stupid leader spending priority trains and huge strong force trying to annilate judes all this time,
I don t think the german high command be so stupid, can you imagine them doing that kind of training, I m not, show me one prouve, better then a american soldiers earing a german one trying to talk in english to say he was train to get in charge of the connecticut administration........British planned to attack Russia after the end of the war (operation Unthinkable)....Well... Did they train administration troops???? :lol:

- Plumps - 05.02.2010

Well in the beginning Germany had a lot of luck. If France had reacted fast and not just sat in their fortresses and waited. They could have stopped Germany very early(Invasion of Poland, everything was in the east almost nothing in the west). The German generals where certainly not stupid, but even Manstein & Rommel could not go against the bumbeling top, Hitler & his close party friends.
Even though they had lots and lots of wild plans, with the way they went at things it was bound to fail. So from that point of view it is a shame that Johann Georg Elser had no success with his bomb in Munich. As he could have prevented the big desaster. But a large conflict potential was given due to the peace treaty of Versailles. Which most in Germany saw as a disgraceful peace. I would say Germanys plans where sort of blown up like Howard Hughs "Spruce Goose" even though he got it to fly in the end.

- VonWaffen - 05.02.2010

Lollll War is a strange thing....Vietnam win again USA , Afganistan again Russia ,
even some strange Zoulou tribut manage to be abel to win again england empire sometime...
They was lucky ...How know ?? Maybe.... Smile

- caldrail - 07.02.2010

VonWaffen Wrote:Blitzkreg happen after and because England , french and canada declare war to germany.
My point was that it was going to happen anyway. Germany had already gained a track record for territorial capture and annexation, France was an age old enemy (and witness please the signing of the surrender in the very same railway carriage as the previous world war - definitely a grudge settled there) and Britain represented a powerful faction with strategic importance. Don't forget, Britain represented coal and industry back then, not to mention a possible takeover of a large and powerful navy.

Quote:Then they apply case yellow (Manstein operational exercise plan base on ww1)
You seem very dismissive about that. The fact the original plan was n exercise means nothing. To enable such a strategy means that additional detailed planning must have taken place when the overall strategy was accepted. I repeat what I said before - you cannot mount an offensive involving even tens of thousands unless you put some kind of plan in place. How else do all the individual units know where to go? Where to obtain resources? Who to report to?

Quote:They don t even espect get on the channel that fast and so easy . That why he stop the panzer division for many day when they join the channel and don t attack dunkerk, Many german infantry troops was still to far and it s well know Hitler didn t want make war with england ,Hitler give this order , he was consider them like a great nation and want them on is side. Guderian and other OKW member take it like a mistake..
No, that's wrong. By that stage Britain and Germany were at war. The realities of a quick advance are, as you point out, sometimes necessitating a halt to allow logistics to catch up, but that merely underlines the success of the mobile armoured division tactics developed by the Germans, somewhat ironically based on the ideas of British officers lik Liddell-Hart and Fuller who were ignored by officialdom in Britain (well, perhaps not entirely, Britain did experiment with an armoured division in the 30's similar to that later used by the Wehrmacht, but quietly dropped the idea)

Quote:Then Goering convince hitler to lunch the luftwaffe on dunkirk....
All the weapons stay on the beach and many soldiers was taken prisionner , but what they do ??? Nothing for many week again England.
They try to convince them to stop war.....But Churchill won t .
I don't think you realise how determined Hitler was to dominate Europe. In any case, it didn't matter, the only - and I do mean only - reason Hitler was keen to avoid contuing hostilities with Britain was his overriding ambition to conquer Russia, and he had written in Mein Kampf of the straegic need to avoid a war on two fronts. Even if Britain had agreed to a cessation of hostilities, sooner or later Hitler would have turned on them.

Quote:Germany was planning to make long distance bomber...True,,, but they call them Oral Bombers , and we know were is Oral (in deap russia).....For sure they can reach new york but how they will came back ???? (Maybe they draw some luftwaffe 46 hypotetique weapon and flying saucer but it s not training troops)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber

Quote:They send U-boats in Canadian and American coast that true ,but they was there to sunk boats , not to invade USA.
That's what I said. It was a strategy designed to persuade America not to suplly Britain.

Quote:OK We also know Hitler was a stupid stategist,
Actually... Hitler was an intelligent guy if not quite all there. As for strategy, let's not forget he took a poverty-stricken country deeply divided over ideology and politics, and created a unified empire stretching across mainland Europe. I'm not suggesting that was a good thing, just that it happened.

Quote:I don t think the german high command be so stupid, can you imagine them doing that kind of training, I m not, show me one prouve, better then a american soldiers earing a german one trying to talk in english to say he was train to get in charge of the connecticut administration........British planned to attack Russia after the end of the war (operation Unthinkable)....Well... Did they train administration troops???? :lol:
I have only the televised testimony of Ray Leoperd to go by. We are only taking about a cadre of German personnel anyway, not a massive corps of pen-pushers. Had an invasion of the US been a success (quite how they'd achieve it is another matter, but I suspect they were hoping on utilising pro-German sentiment, and lets not forget the antipathy present in America culture of the time. "Churchill wants to fight to the last American")

As for the British training administrators - No, they didn't. The planners were realistic and told Churchill that without allies (America, Poland, and German volunteers) the plan was effectively impossible. What was the point of training administrators, especially since Britain had no intention of staying in occupation? That was the difference. The Germans meant to keep and govern what they captured. Britain was more interested in decisive military action and political change.


PS -For those interested in alternative histories, there is an intriguing possibility. Imagine after Dunkirk that almost-helpless Britain agrees to remain neutral and leave mainland Europe to the Germans, subject to certain conditions of course. Operation Barbarossa follows, Germany reaches Stalingrad or even further but the soviet counterattacks begin to make themselves felt and by early 1943, Germany calls upon Britain to send forces to aid against communist Russia.

- fakk - 06.04.2010

War is truly a strange thing, Hitler wouldn't have been able to even think about invading France or the Soviet Union without the help of General Motors and Standard Oil.