[vanir]

In respect for Fly_zo I moved discussion about the performance and details of the Me-410 new model release so that the Download section thread can remain purely about the release of the mod itself and not the historical details about the aircraft, that belongs here I should think.


Where discussion was left off it seems was mid-conversation between "username" and "Hunin" (Munin's brother, obviously, cousin to Freke and Gere). There was also a valuable point regarding a readme file, sort of an informal guidebook to the type since it is such a comprehensive, comparatively effective and well equipped model with quite a number of custom options. The readme might also help with minor and repetitive installation queries, such as the fact I had no idea how to operate a telescopic sight in il2 (and now my new question is, since there are two other telescopic sights I've not been able to operate, the F2A and Ki-43-I is whether the same system will work, but I'll find that out next time I play il2).

I thought this thread could freely be used to examine the Me-410 in detail, both historically and the downloadable mod, without cluttering up the Downloads forum. I think that would be preferred by the staff, though the subject material is directly concerning a legitimate site mod. But also this kind of thread is bound to be opionated at some points, argumentative in others and the discussions forum is where that kind of thing really belongs.

First, courtesy of the Warbirds site plus whatever else I've got laying around here in my room (I'll give references as necessary), let's have some reputed historical specifications:

Me-410A
Engines: DB-603A 44.5-litre 12-cyl inline using B4 fuel, altitude rated for 5.7km
Max output: 1750PS at S/L (1580PS climb at 2550rpm, 1510PS max continuous, circa 1450PS climb at 5700m)
Max speed: 625km/h at 6700m (587km/h cruise at approx 6300m)
Max range: 1690km internal fuel
Ceiling (service): 10 000m
Typical operating weight: 11237kg

Armament:
2x MG-17 machine guns (1000rpm-cyclic, 1000rpg store)
2x MG-151/20 cannon (800rpm-cyclic, 350rpg store)
2x MG-131 machine guns in rearward barbettes (900rpm-cyclic, 500rpg store)

Subtypes, Umr

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

Thanks,

Do the references to the Bk5 being mounted in the bomb bay preclude some of the armament options we have?

I also recall that six WGr21 were experimentally mounted on the Me-410 using a rotary launcher in the bomb bay. I've never heard of them being mounted in packs of three under each wing. I'm not saying its incorrect, but I would be interested to see the references.

Also, does anyone know if there were lightened versions or what the trigger arrangement was (I hate mixing Mk-103s and Mg-151s on the same trigger)...

Anyway, it is certainly a neat mod.

[Zorin]

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

Very neat, thanks!

[fly_zo]

now ... that is the proper way to do it


many thanks vanir

cheers
Z

[Hunin]

Good idea, thank you Vanir.

There are a couple of things though that are wrong, wich are constantly repeated through various publications - as it often happens with WW2 literature ( E-3 engine-hub MG-FF anyone?).

1. As far as my sources go the standard MG 151/20 could draw from 250-280 rpg - as I haven't found a real answer to this I'm more then willing to learn something new.
EDIT Crosschecked original Flugzeug-Handbuch; 350 rpg is correct - change will be included in the first patch.

2. The alwasy quoted maximum speed comes from an A-1/U2 variant, not a completely clean A-1.
I estimated the difference to be something between 3 and 7 km/h.
The maximum speed of our A-1 is 508 and 629 km/h at SL and full rated height respectivly.

3. The B series was never equiped with the DB 603G engines.
The engine proofed to be very unreliable and problems kept tripping the final developement until the engine was finaly canceled in '44.
All serial produced 410s carried either the 603A or 603Aa ( better supercharger ).

4. About certain weapon configurations and the specific numbers, we have just stumbled about primary sources wich should clearify some questions.

5. For now I have left the Me 410 D with DB 603 E engines - just because I haven't found anything about the 603JZ.
I did build a 603 N for testing purposes, but decided to drop it for reasons of historical probability.
Again - if we can come up with new hints in the right direction; I'd love to revise this.

[vanir]

Whew, I'm glad I wasn't putting my foot in it with this thread

Thanks for the extra info, Hunin. From what I've read production of the DB-603G was cancelled towards the end of 44 but I was unsure about how many were actually built and whether these powered the Me-410B (which entered production in April and was also cancelled again, later in the year).

I assumed the whole thing related to Kurt Tank's ability to finally convince the RLM of his Ta-152C and DB-603L project, which they were against and Messerschmitt was favoured (even with the Me-210 failure, since the 410 finally received such positive reports from the Fronts). It was mid-late 44 when Tank mounted a DB-603 engine into one of the Fw-190D prototypes and flew it for the RLM observers, who apparently left the field convinced at last that the massive engine was usable for single seat fighters (and even better than the JuMo-213). The RLM agreed to look at a full prototype for the series as a Zerst

[vanir]

Assuming with Hunin's help I have some of the development of the Me-410 clear, if I may...

Do the references to the Bk5 being mounted in the bomb bay preclude some of the armament options we have?

The Bk.5 armament didn't get into the physical space of the standard armament, though the MG-17 machine guns were mounted lower and bomb bay space could in fact be increased slightly by their removal. The anti-tank gun was a neat package with a rotary magazine holding 21 rounds, that fitted nicely into the weapons bay compartment. The reason the frontal armament was deleted on the A-1/U-4 was mostly tied in with how, when and why they were modified, which was a matter of sending the 410A-1 (and B-1) stukas back to the Messerschmitt factory where they were converted to Reich Defence duties. No other equipment such as external bomb racks were removed, just the frontal standard armament, so these were actually the fastest climbers and pursuers of the bomber-destroyers in the type.
The A-2 and B-2 were always intended as heavy fighters (again the difference is rated altitude between these variants although it seems the B-series had slightly lesser take off performace than the A in most cases). These models were employed slightly differently to the A-1 and B-1 or at least that was the manufacturer intention, and remained heavier airframes throughout the mission, they were heavy ground attack models and didn't rely on speed as much. In their bomber-destroyer version (A-2/U4 and B-2/U4), these wouldn't have been the quickest climbers in an interception run, but look out when they finally get there. The other thing was versatility, by the B-2/U2R3 subtype a couple of MK-103 plus a pair of MG-151/20 and MG-17 was a nice compromise on attack and interception so both duties could be performed, it was probably as good a bomber killer as the Bk.5 only with slightly less range capability, but was still good for ground attacks the next morning. Converted A-1 and B-1 "schnellbombers" didn't have this problem, they had been converted as improvised bomber-destroyers full time.

interjection: for general information the DB-603Aa engine has a rated altitude of 7.3km and a take off output of 1670PS with the same low altitude climb characteristics of the 603A. The 603E has a take off of 1800PS and a 7km altitude rating, with again similar low altitude climb performance as the 603A (source: wikipedia I think). In the end this means they all have about the same load capacity, the E motor a bit more, the Aa slightly less but both these latter engines will pull like a locomotive at 7km altitude and give a Mark IX Spitfire something to really worry about (something very few twin engine planes can lay claim to).

[Murph]

Hunin I mentioned this in the other thread but I want to make sure it's not overlooked- there seems to be a bug with the engine mounted instruments (Fuel gauges, etc.) not appearing until some damage is sustained. For some reason they are just not there ( they are actually a cockpit texture) when the plane is undamaged, so there's no way to know how much fuel is left in the tanks if you stay undamaged.

[Guest]

Murph hi
those gauges shouldnt be showing when you are damaged - the combined fuel gauge is just behind the stick - in the next version it will not show any engine mounted gauges when you are damaged. You will notice the 'D' version does not show any engine mounted gauges when damaged, the reason for this is because we only noticed it at the last minute & then fixing the other A & B just slipped us by :wink:

[vanir]

I've got an update on the revolver cannon used in the 410D modelling, which is fascinating stuff. I'd never actually heard of this gun and probably remembered it wrong as I went to the brilliant "military guns and ammunition forum" of Tony Williams. His website are easily the eminent source on the web of the topic.

Here was his reply posted this afternoon:

The MG 215 was made in two calibres: 13x92B and 15x83B. They are illustrated in the ammo photo gallery on my website. The intention was to replace the MG 131 with a simpler, cheaper and more powerful gun. It was a gas-operated Mauser design. It was dropped when interest focused on cannon calibres instead.

I think that the one you are referring to was the MG 213C, a revolver cannon developed initially in 20mm and then in 30mm. The 20mm fired a high-velocity 20x135 round (1,000 m/s), the 30mm a much lower-velocity (530 m/s) 30x85B. These were unique cartridges, not used by anything else. Both guns fired at c.1200 rpm. Only about ten prototype guns had been made by the end of the war.

After WW2, development of the MG 213C continued in several countries, leading (among others) to the Aden and DEFA 30mm guns which were initially close copies.

[RAF_Magpie]

MG213

[Billis851]

WGR 210mm.



Billis851

[Hunin]

I've decided to change the engines on the B series to DB 603Aa.
Just because the B was basicaly used in the destroyer role most of the time.
So high alt performence is where it's at.

For the D I'm still not sure whether or how to adjust things.
Your hypothesis about the different DB 603s perfectly matches my own.
With the D-15 and 152 beeing the definite new mainstays, I think even the 603E is a bit stretching.
What just crossed my mind was the probability of a Jumo 213.
With the Ju 388 out of the way ( basicaly a worse plane for all the jobs the 410s good for) and the Ta 152 H only beeing a secondary, suplemental fighter in the jet age, the 213 E-1 might be an option.
If not the E-1, then maybe the A-1...
Questions...questions...

[Strafe]

Guess I should posted it here .....

Congratulations again guys. Wonderful work.
I have some Me410 e-books here. They have some nice pictures and tech info. If you want them I can upload it. They pdf files, 30mb in average. If you have fttp protocol the transfer can be fast.

I hope soon his cockpit has to be reworked, I miss that glass windows in the nose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp3L0ZM8tnE





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more info:
http://detailsite.tripod.com/410/410framespage.htm

Walkaround : )
http://s96920072.onlinehome.us/AWA1/201 ... alk205.htm