[taurus]

Hello MysticPuma,

I would really like to get a sliding canopy happening for the razorback and bubbletop but at this stage I don't know how, and I can't see it happening in the foreseeable future. (Not until a 3D editor is made available at any rate.) Sorry to put a dampener on this (and I would like to be proven wrong.)

[Guest]

which P47 did you want the sliding canopy for ?
this is possible but please wait until we have finished some projects :wink:

[Mysticpuma]

Well if possible, and when time allows, errrr, all of them!

Starting with the P-47 D-10, then 22, then 27, then Late.

I was always told if you don't ask, you don't get.

As you have popped here too Mr. Jolly, would it be possible to have the sliding canopy on the P-51D models as-well. Again, only when time allows, but is it possible?

Thanks for looking in on this great work, cheers, MP.

BTW, the reason for the sliding canopy is for a documentary about the Checkertails, which is taking up hours of my life at the moment, but to have a sliding canopy, along with these cockpits, well, I can see there is going to be a lot of credit...in the credits, with a big thanks to the AAA.

Cheers, MP.

[poncho]

I tried the new pit with the D22 Razorback last night and it seems to work fine. I was wondering if anyone has any info on major differences between the D22 and the D10. Are they close enough to release as a set without a lot of modification?

The only difference that we have discussed to this point has been using the square handle throttle for models with the Mk8 sight. This would be easy enough to do, but are there other major differences?


Poncho

[chris455]

Poncho,
I checked a few of my references and the only changes I find are detail changes usually meant to simplify production, only "major" ones I can see are a CE propeller for the D22 and a "revised" throttle quadrant (probably meaning the square handle) .
Let's see if ShadowGravy and others find anything I might have missed.

[FA_Diablo]

Poncho,
I checked a few of my references and the only changes I find are detail changes usually meant to simplify production, only "major" ones I can see are a CE propeller for the D22 and a "revised" throttle quadrant (probably meaning the square handle) .
Let's see if ShadowGravy and others find anything I might have missed.

Chris...that's pretty much what I ahve seen too. Not alot of difference. The onluy possibility might be in guage placement on the dash. I would say we would be safe to use the same pit for both. Oh yeah....taurus and poncho...if you need a couple beta testers on it I'm sure you could find a couple willing jug jocks here...hint hint hint. LOL

[poncho]

Oh yeah....taurus and poncho...if you need a couple beta testers on it I'm sure you could find a couple willing jug jocks here...hint hint hint. LOL

Actually, Taurus PM'd me with that very suggestion last night. I agree.

[ShadowGravy]

Pragmatically speaking, I'm sure any changes between the D-10 and D-22 cockpits are so minor that most people wouldn't know the difference. We're somewhat limited by the original 3-D models anyhow even when borrowing parts from other cockpits is a serviceable workaround.

For anybody who might be interested, here are some of my thoughts and findings on the cosmetic differences between the D-10 and D-22:

1. As was mentioned, the Hamilton-Standard propeller was introduced with the D-22 model. This probably would have created a very minor visible difference in that the Curtiss Electric propeller used until that time had controls on the main electrical panel near the pilot's left foot. (More specifically, the CE prop controls are located on the top right corner of the panel). I don't know what the D-22 configuration looked like, but later Hamilton-Standard equipped planes did not have any additional propeller controls other than the propeller lever on the throttle quadrant. Interestingly, in the later bubble-topped 'D' models the Curtiss Electric propeller controls were located on a box seperate from the main electrical panel. From what I can tell, all of the B, C and D models had the propeller lever on the throttle quadrant regardless of if they had a Curtiss Electric or a Hamilton Standard propeller.

* Verdict: not worth worrying about.


2. My original theory was that since stronger wings and pylons became a standard feature with the P-47D-15-RE, the D-10 model wouldn't have bomb/wing tank release levers. This, however, seems to be somewhat contradicted by the November, 1943 edition of the Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions:
" © WING TANKS.--To provide sufficient fuel for long range ferrying, some P-47D-5-RE and later airplanes may be equipped to use either 150 U.S. (125 Imperial) gallons or 300 U.S. (247 Imperial) gallons wing tanks. Hung from Standard Army type B-10 shackles just outboard of the landing-gear legs on each wing, the tanks may be released by an upward pull on the Army T-type control handle located on the left side of the cockpit afte of the main switchbox."

* Verdict: Not worth worrying about. I personally think that the D-22 should have specialized bomb arming and tank release handles at the pilot's left like on the later bubble-topped Thunderbolts but I can't prove this to be true.


3. Very minor fuel selector differences. AAF Training Manual 50-5 says:
"[Illustration] The fuel selector and the wing tank cocks on series from the D-5 to the D-15. Note the provision for a belly tank. To use, simply set the selector on BELLY TANK. When you desire to draw gas from a wing tank, set the main cock on BELLY TANK, and the secondary cock either to LEFT ON or RIGHT ON, depending on the tank wanted."
-- Main selector markings (quartered, clockwise from top) = MAIN ON / AUXILIARY ON / OFF / BELLY TANK.
-- Wing tank selector markings (bisectected equally) = WING LEFT ON / TANKS RIGHT ON.

"[Illustration] The fuel cocks from the D-15 on. To use the drop tanks, place the main selector on EXTERNAL TANKS, and the other cock to the tank desired."
-- Main selector markings (quartered, clockwise from top) = MAIN ON / AUXILIARY ON / OFF / EXTERNAL TANKS ON.
-- External tanks selector markings (quartered, clockwise from top) = blank / RIGHT WING ON / LEFT WING ON / blank. {The two blank areas might be conjoined to form a full hemisphere?}

* Verdict: Not worth worrying about since the fuel selectors are nonfunctional in the game.


4. A canopy eject lever was present on the D-22 but not on the D-10. This would have been located at the top of the sliding canopy where it meets the windscreen framing. From AAF 50-5:
"From the D=15 on, the canopy is jettisonable. To jettison it on series up to the D-25, pull down on the T-shaped handle in the upper center of the canopy above the canopy lock release latch."

* Verdict: Not worth worrying about.


5. Rocket Fire Control Box. Am I wrong in thinking that the current D-10 model doesn't have a rocket loadout while the D-22 model does? Either way, the inclusion of a rocket fire control box in the D-22 would be a nice touch...if one can be lifted from one of the other fighters. From AAF 50-5:
"A small fire control box in the cockpit enables you to fire the rockets individually or in train, with the projectiles leaving the tubes at intervals of 1/10 of a second." I can't find documentation of where this unit was mounted however. The earliest P-47N's appear to have had a similar unit located under the parking brake below the instrument panel.

* Verdict: Nice if it could be added but I'm currently unable to support with evidence.


6. Noted but inconclusive: Series starting with the P-47D-20-RA had improved heating in the cockpit, and the gun bays were heated through a ducted system instead of by an electrical unit. I have no idea how -- or if -- this affected cockpit arrangement.

* Verdict: Disregard.

[ShadowGravy]

Something I just noticed while going through all the posts since the beginning: All the P-47 models in the game have an electrical bomb-or-tank release mounted under the parking brake. This unit was (according to AN 01-65BC-1A, Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for Army Models P-47D-25, -26, -27, -28, -30, -35 Airplanes and British Model Thunderbolt) introduced with the P-47D-30 variant.

Bubbletopped variants prior to the D-30 -- at least up through the D-27-- had arming handles to the left of the pilot's seat. The manual shows this illustration:


As I said in the above post, I believe (but I can't prove) that these pull handles or something similar were used in the later 'D' model razorbacks as well. AAF 50-5 states:

"On most P-47's the bombs are armed by three T-shaped controls adjacent to controls used to jettison external tanks. Turn a control counterclockwise, pull and then twist clockwise to arm. To safety a bomb, reverse the steps. To drop the bomb, pull the appropriate TANK RELEASE handle."

This procedure seems to mean that the handles next to the electrical switches in the original models are also incorrect. The handles are accurate for the D-30 model though:

(A similar arrangement can be seen in this P-47N cockpit diagram.)

In other words, according to illustrations in vintage operating manuals there should only be the parking brake for models up through the P-47D-27; the box with the red switches and the pull handles should be removed. However, I also stated above that I believe (but I can't prove) that the rocket control box for the tube launchers might have been mounted under the parking brake handle.

[taurus]

Another excellent contribution to this endevour there ShadowGravy. Lots of implications to consider for the bubbletop version when we get to her.

I'm afraid to say that you hit the nail on the head when you said "We're somewhat limited by the original 3-D models anyhow even when borrowing parts from other cockpits is a serviceable workaround." It is only by the hard work and determination of Poncho that we have components something even close to what a razorback should look like. (Never ever forgetting the efforts of the crew that got a P-47 into the game in the first place!!!) Even if we could import a created simple flat mesh, it would be ground-breaking.

Please feel free to speak as pragmatically as you like, the detail is superb. 8)

Cheers,

Taurus.

[poncho]

Thanks for the feedback and thorough analysis SG Will you be making this available on CD ?:lol:

As Taurus said this will all be extremely valuable information if we have access to a 3D converter.

Poncho

[duffys tavern]

I agree with Mysticpuma, a sliding canopy would add so much to "Jug".
Anything you guys can do would be much appreciated.

[chris455]

Taurus/Poncho:
Will the work you are currently doing lend itself to a weathering job by some enterprising modder down the road? The reason I ask is, even though heavily weathered A/C are probably not as realistic as some may think (I read somewhere that on average, WWII aircraft had a life expectancy of 6 months or less after arriving at the front ) it stiil looks very effective if done well.
Just Curious. :wink:
RE: Sliding canopy. My thoughts are just this. If it is possible, someone is going to make it happen at some point. From my perspective, what you guys are doing to the actual pit is more important for now. Any 'add-ons ' you choose to accomplish will be the icing on the cake, but you have my eternal gratitude at least whether you give us anything "extra" or not. I regard the new pit as nothing short of a miracle. 8)

[I_B_Spectre]

You may've seen this footage, but it's a decent WWII color film about the 362nd Fighter Group, 377th Squadron Jugs flying out of Etaine, France. It has a step-by-step engine start procedure showing the cockpit setup and control setup. For a brief moment at 3:13, there's an over-the-shoulder view showing the slip/skid ball on the gunsight, which I'm hoping can be worked-in at some point. Enjoy!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &pr=googsl

[taurus]

Will the work you are currently doing lend itself to a weathering job by some enterprising modder down the road?

Yes, I hope so. The current textures are intended to be "factory fresh" so that there is a clean slate for the artist to work with for weathering.

Cheers,

Taurus.