[FlyingFinn]

You also have to take into consideration that you cannot fly the plane exactly straight so the speeds shown are always off by 5-10km/h

[Thighsolator]

isn't there a GM-1 boost for that plane? either way the C was the low altitude version and it sucks massively at low alt, should be like the D9 performance wise.

[luther01]

yeah i thought it was a low alt version. it has very poor acceleration at low alt?

[Guest]

EDIT: I just realised that according to your screenshots the Ta-152 already has a DB603LA engine, intriguing.

...FM say DB603L with 1665hp.......and Ta152C was not low alt version....it was low alt compared to Ta152H because it flew best at 9000-9500m.......it did not have GM1 because with all that power (2100hp,2300with mw50) you don't need it ....

[Romanator]

Rather than mucking around with flight models and creating new aircraft, how about just figuring out how to fly the plane? Those speeds were met under certain conditions by a qualified test pilot, and in normal combat those speeds were rarely achieved. You can also match the speed if you practice, experiment and research. The Crimea map has close to standard conditions, so it will probably give you better numbers. To go to these speeds use 100% power. Be sure the rudder and elevator are trimmed. The "ball" must be centered, and the plane should maintain altitude without input from you. Adjust mixture, supercharger, and boost as necessary. The boost for some planes will not do anything at lower altitudes except for cooking your engine (Using boost or WEP in the P-51 is one example-it is totally useless on takeoff and at lower altitudes) For some planes you cannot simply apply WEP and be done. For these planes, lower power to 80% apply boost, then push the throttle to 110%. This way you won't overheat as quickly. If you go fast enough you won't need the radiators open at all anyway. Use the elevator as minimally as possible. The plane does what the manual says it will do, so don't start fiddling around just because it's a little too hard to get there.
Cheers. :wink:

[Thighsolator]

but isn't spraying MW50 into the engine at 5000m+ kind of self defeating since MW50 is a low altitude boost?

[vanir]

@ Thighsolater, no MW-50 is a boost system for use under the Full Throttle Height of the engine. Normally you can only use full throttle near the rated altitude of the engine/supercharger fitment (say, typically 5000 metres for a mid-war type) but because the air is thicker below this altitude, if you try to use full throttle and your maximum safe supercharger pressure is 1.42ata, the actual supercharger pressure delivered might be something like 1.7ata and blow the engine. So you have to restrict throttle use (or install a mechanical valve to reduce pilot workload). This is why FTH is a factor when considering aero engines.
MW-50 or some other water-alcohol injection system allows full throttle use and in some cases actually allows further increased supercharger pressures, well below the rated altitude of the engine. So where the throttle setting would cause 1.42ata @ 5000m and say 1.7ata @ 2000m, now you can actually use the full throttle at 2000m anyway without blowing the engine.
This provides overboost and increases the internationally rated output of the engine markedly.

From what I've been able to gather MW-30 might actually be the mixture to allow below full throttle height maximum throttle for German engines. MW-50 includes a more complicated system which also provides a little additional supercharger overboost (say 1.8ata instead of 1.7ata @ 2000m, further increasing low altitude outputs), and was probably designed specifically with the DB-605AS in mind, and then placed in major production as the standard system issued (MW-30 was however also used during the war). I believe Allied water-injection systems are synonymous with MW-30 (although they typically use some other alcohol to prevent the water tank freezing at altitude).

For aircraft which have a maxiumum rated altitude of 8000m like the DB-605AS for example, adding MW-50 gives best performance at around 6800m (or roughly 1-1.5km under the rated altitude of the engine, as modified by supercharger gearing). Water-injection of all kinds is also fantastic for increasing "take off and emergency" engine ratings at sea level (ie. full rich mixture, water injection enabled, gradually open to full throttle for a maximum of 1 minute during the take off run), in order to shorten take offs in field conditions with heavy combat loads.

Full throttle emergency power enabling water injection at altitude should typically only be used for a maximum of 5 or 10 minutes (depending on type) by comparison, before engine overheating and/or catastrophic damage. At least ten minutes of cooling afterwards is required. Water injection systems should only be enabled around 1-1.5km below the normal rated altitude of the engine, simply because the system provides no benefits at any higher altitude than this.

Full throttle should only be used for warbirds WW2 vintage as a general rule, at sea level or very low altitude for a very limited period of no more than 1 minute, though overall maximum boost pressure can be substantially increased for this period with the use of water-injection or MW-30/MW-50.

The rated altitude of the DB-603LA is 10,000 metres. The FTH is 10,500 metres. The maximum performance capabilties using MW-50 are 9500 metres (740km/h under test conditions time period unclear, ref. Joe Baugher), with maximum FTH performance at of course 10,500 metres (730km/h tested Jan 1945, ref. Focke Wulf).

[Paulo Hirth]

Man... i want learn to do a new slot plane, i hate wait for a work... looks 4.09m...

[vanir]

What I am unclear about is that Joe Baugher claims following his research that the Ta-150C-0 reached 740km/h at 9500 metres using MW-50 boost at presumably 1.75ata combined.
The afore posted Focke Wulf document states the maximum speed at 10,500 metres @ 1.75ata with MW-50 tank equipped and usable (presumably used).

According to Joe Baugher the take off performance of the DB-605LA is 2100PS normal maximum output (take of emergency power without MW-50) with 2300PS using MW-50. He says the top speed at 10,500 metres of 730km/h is the FTH without use of MW-50 (740km/h at 9500m with MW-50).

So the in-game Ta-152C-0 follows this Focke Wulf document and not subsequent research by apparently qualified individuals AFAIK. Joe Baugher's research appears fairly well celebrated among contemporaries, or by independent enthusiast research.
In this respect the Ta-152C in-game may be undermodelled.

[Paulo Hirth]

Rather than mucking around with flight models and creating new aircraft, how about just figuring out how to fly the plane? Those speeds were met under certain conditions by a qualified test pilot, and in normal combat those speeds were rarely achieved. You can also match the speed if you practice, experiment and research. The Crimea map has close to standard conditions, so it will probably give you better numbers. To go to these speeds use 100% power. Be sure the rudder and elevator are trimmed. The "ball" must be centered, and the plane should maintain altitude without input from you. Adjust mixture, supercharger, and boost as necessary. The boost for some planes will not do anything at lower altitudes except for cooking your engine (Using boost or WEP in the P-51 is one example-it is totally useless on takeoff and at lower altitudes) For some planes you cannot simply apply WEP and be done. For these planes, lower power to 80% apply boost, then push the throttle to 110%. This way you won't overheat as quickly. If you go fast enough you won't need the radiators open at all anyway. Use the elevator as minimally as possible. The plane does what the manual says it will do, so don't start fiddling around just because it's a little too hard to get there.
Cheers. :wink:

Oh no... i hate this... so you think is wrong? Lets stay wrong... no, lets try improve...
I love dificult, i am a FW pilot, but correct dificult, that games is so good, worth do a
good job!

[vanir]

Another very interesting point is that according to Focke Wulf the performance of the Ta-152C and Ta-152H are almost indentical up to 11,500 metres with only GM-1 changing the equation for the latter aircraft (allowing a reuse of lower supercharger gearing and providing FTH performance through to approximately 14,000 metres).

Whilst this alone doesn't state the DB-603 was simply a better high altitude engine than the Jumo 213, it most definitely proves it was at least as good.

The fact both engines ran on B4 fuel too, is exemplary. Experiments conceived using C3 in the 603 engine postulated realistic take off performance in the 3000hp category.

[AIRdomination]

*sigh* Paulo will never give up 8) I've gotten great speed from this bird all the time. Ta-152C is a hard plane to fly, I'm almost certain you're doing something wrong. Because a good couple of us can fly this plane with ease. Its called practice.

[vanir]

Rather than mucking around with flight models and creating new aircraft, how about just figuring out how to fly the plane? Those speeds were met under certain conditions by a qualified test pilot, and in normal combat those speeds were rarely achieved. You can also match the speed if you practice, experiment and research. The Crimea map has close to standard conditions, so it will probably give you better numbers. To go to these speeds use 100% power. Be sure the rudder and elevator are trimmed. The "ball" must be centered, and the plane should maintain altitude without input from you. Adjust mixture, supercharger, and boost as necessary. The boost for some planes will not do anything at lower altitudes except for cooking your engine (Using boost or WEP in the P-51 is one example-it is totally useless on takeoff and at lower altitudes) For some planes you cannot simply apply WEP and be done. For these planes, lower power to 80% apply boost, then push the throttle to 110%. This way you won't overheat as quickly. If you go fast enough you won't need the radiators open at all anyway. Use the elevator as minimally as possible. The plane does what the manual says it will do, so don't start fiddling around just because it's a little too hard to get there.
Cheers. :wink:

Oh no... i hate this... so you think is wrong? Lets stay wrong... no, lets try improve...
I love dificult, i am a FW pilot, but correct dificult, that games is so good, worth do a
good job!

I find myself the Ta-152C in-game compares very well to the Me-109K-4/C3 and the 1945 Fw-190D-9.

The problem is I genuinely believe both these FMs are undermodelled for low altitude performance, which would also make the Ta-152C undermodelled.

Next point is the new slot models at AAA like the Fw-190D-11/13 and the latest Me-109G-14/AS claim extensive historical research using primary source material, and yet far outweigh the in-game performance of the above-mentioned aircraft by quite a massive margin.

So compared to AAA site new slot aircraft, the Ta-152C and the Me-109K and Fw-190D for that matter are grossly and ridiculously undermodelled.


Indeed we have a serious issue here, there is no doubt.

[Thighsolator]

that is some interesting stuff vanir, so if i understand you... to keep the manifold pressure low enough to prevent detonation, with the supercharger in gear and MW50 spraying, you have to lower the throttle... right? full throttle with supercharger in first gear and low altitude and MW50 should considerably raise the manifold pressure and cause detonation, if i understand correctly. This will result in higher horsepower and eventually engine damage, but as altitude goes up, atmospheric pressure decreases and you can't maintain the manifold pressure. How many stages did the DB603 and Jumo 213 superchargers have? GM1 was used at high altitude because of better oxygen supply that it provided, and that would be why the H models came with both boost systems

[Jaws2002]

The handling problem, in game, with the Ta152C is the wing area.
They gave the 152C the same wing area as the regular FW190A.