A question for Dutch--ophiles on this site....
I've been reading about things related to Hollands contribution in WW2, and it struck me that there's conflicting info on the roundels used. IL2 of course uses a standard amber triangle, but there's also a red white and blue 'pie', plus the Dutch national flag which was apparently painted on aircraft sometimes (red, white, and blue horizontal bars). Does anyone know the correct insignia in use with place and time?
patrick james brian
Guest
a orange triangle i think
like this one
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=h ... G%26um%3D1
or this one
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=h ... G%26um%3D1
The cocarde (pie) roundel was changed for the triangle just before the war, because when wedged between Germany, Great Britain and France at war, it's nice if your roundels don't look British or French.
The national flag as roundel was, if i recall correctly, only used in the Pacific. They changed the triangle to the national flag (red white and blue) in 1942. The triangle could be mistaken for the Japanese red circle, especially from further away. I remember my grandma telling me about the b25 with national flags as roundels flying over the internment camp she was in on the day of the capitulation, dropping leaflets . It was a huge morale booster!
After the war, a white border was added to the national flag. After 1948 the cocarde was chosen again as national markings, and it still is.
Wikipedia said that Dutch Spitfires in the RAF 320 sqd used both RAF and Dutch triangles, but I haven't seen any photos. Do they mean the orange triangle on the nose/next to the RAF roundel, or did they drop the RAF markings and had only the triangle?
Spitfires of 322 and B-25's of 320 squadron had normal RAF roundels. However, they were given the provelige of wearing a small orange triangle on the nose of the aircraft. In the Pacific indeed in '42 the triangle was changed into the flag.
Cheers,
Joppe
Pre-war, the "pie" roundel with orange dot in the cente was used in both Holland and the NEI. In September or October 1939, after war broke out in Europe (but with Holland still neutral), an MLD Fokker TVIII-W was shot down by a German aircraft, its crew having mistaken the Dutch insignia for RAF markings. As a result, the black-bordered orange triangle was introduced as a replacement, together with black-bordered rudder, in both Holland and the NEI. The orange rudder was abolished in the NEI later in 1940; the orange triangles also were removed from the upper wings in 1941. However, apparently the Brewsters and Glenn Martins sent to Singapore had the triangles repainted on the upper wing surfaces at the insistence of the RAF, though these were removed when the surviving planes returned to the NEI. The "Singapore" Brewsters also had a white band painted round the rear fuselage, again at the RAF's request.
In the UK, the Dutch-manned aircraft carried standard RAF roundels, plus a small black-bordered orange triangle on the nose, for instance the Hudsons and later B-25s of 320 Squadron and Spitfires of 322 Squadron.
In the NEI, the orange triangle was retained until Feb. 23rd 1942, when it was changed to the "national flag" marking after several incidents of Dutch planes being attacked by RAF and USAAC fighters over Java, the triangle being mistaken for the Japanese hinomaru. The official changeover date was to be March 1st 1942. (Presumably some aircraft were repainted prior to March 1st, and others afterwards). Again, the markings were on fuselage and lower wing surfaces only. After the fall of the NEI, the national flag marking was retained for those aircraft operated in the Far East such as 18 Squadron's B-25s, 120 Squadron's P-40Ns and 321 Squadron's B-24s, usually in the standard RA(A)F six positions.
The P-51Ds and Ks allocated to the ML in 1945 had the national flag markings applied in the standard US positions at the factory i.e. fuselage sides, port upper and starboard lower wing surfaces.
