11.11.2009, 19:38
The F-80C is broken. Gives me a "can't load mission: null" anytime there's one in it. Everything else is fine.
PACK MOD COREA
11.11.2009, 20:22
To all those interested and will be posted else where, there is a reason for the double post.
Firstly Hello, I have been dying to post this update for some time now, talk of how accurate the FMs are not entirely true due to recent findings, fist note
Super Sonic fighters are fighters that fly in level flight above Mach 1.2, The F-86 us not really a true supersonic fighter, It spends most of its time in transonic flight and cannot reach Mach 1 under its own engine power only in a shallow dive and also easier at higher alts doing the same.
The speed of sound or Mach as you know is different at all altitudes and is measured in TAS, therefore you will appear to reach mach at lower IAS speeds at higher alt. the use of TAS now is important as is the need for a mach gauge. Descriptions of pilot reports can be mirrored in 1:1 human combat.
The original FMs that you guys are flying that have been reported as realistic, at the time of creation they appeared so however, last month I was able to load these aircraft into IL-2 Compare and I noticed straight away the issues. The original FMs were done mainly by Hunin and additional help my self with detail and facts. Testing, pre release FM and other tweaks currently in the FMs Howlin, this was a long time ago to think back and I am certain that each of us had a fair share of work into the original FM (no offense intended at any one mentioned or not mentioned). Since then I have spent many hours in very little days correcting these. I have extensively researched these and have built a very large library of details. The FMs have currently been completely redone by myself with testing by certain friends. My notes on the current FMs and problems are:
o Currently the climb rate of MiG-15Bis is closer to that of a MiG-17 (65m/s), This should be 50m/s based on the earlier 1949 April/July variant, this has been corrected however it is 53.5m/s close enough, I will explain why this compromise later.
o The roll rate of the MiG-15Bis out rolled that of the F-86, this is wrong. The F-86 should roll at 180 deg/s or 2 seconds for a complete roll at all speeds except high speed where it drops to around 3 seconds. The Mig-15 and Bis should roll at 90 degrees a second or roll in 4 seconds, at high speed the MiG-15 would lock up completely however the Bis had boosted ailerons and could manage 6 seconds, the Sabre now out rolls the MiG twice as fast at all speeds, Correct
o The Sabre if rolled continuously for too long (many fast rolls) at low speed will eventually start effects similar to that experienced on the MiG-21 "Auto Rotation", this does not mean it will auto roll, it means it will go into a weird barrel roll where the nose eventually pitches up into the centre causing an easily recoverable flat spin, this was not deliberate but a by product of reaching the limits of FMs which are designed for props, the game has limits with its FM I am not sure it can handle modern complex supersonic fighter flight models, as the performance curve cannot be as accurately defined as say a P-51 Prop, these FMs will do ok with in the current limits, any more and you would have to compromise on areas.
o The Sabre can and does out dive a MiG-15Bis however the MiG-15Bis will out dive the F-86 in an initial dive but the F-86 will accelerate past the MiG and has higher speed tolerance in a dive, it will not brake apart so easily, Correct
o The Sabre A-5 now climbs at its correct climb speed at 38ms, the F-86F-25E (Early Slatted bigger engine) and F-86F-25L (Late with the '6-3' which was retro fitted to earlier models to give it a fixed slat and larger root and wing area) 47m/s
o Power to weight ratio is very important now that you are flying jets just as much as you would think the turn is and climb, it tells you how well you accelerate and recover from a turn fight to gain advantage. The MiG-15Bis is more closer to RL than the late Sabres, it has a Power to Weight Ratio of 0.53 isntead of 0.54. Due to the limits of the FM with jets, (I cannot further discuss publicly). Certain things have had to be increased, such as weight, if I was to add any more weight to the MiG-15Bis it would affect the dive and other natural advantages the Sabre has over the MiG-15Bis.
o The Sabre A-5 has a power to weight ratio that is 37.5 same as real life and is quite accurate in performance
o The F-25 due to similar limitations related to the MiG-15Bis it has been refined and has a slightly higher thrust to weight and correct climb, this does even the odds in the climb much closer.
o The current original MiG-15Bis and Sabre A-5 fly far too fast at all heights, accelerate too well and black out easily. Corrected
o Peter D after a discussion between each other and extensive research on the high transonic speed effects that each plane suffered from, has created some very nice and interesting effects that are close to what the reports have said. The F-86A-5 like the MiG-15 locks up at high speed at high altitude this is due to it having a regular tail, roll was unaffected. The aircraft now loses not all but much control in pitch at high speed and high altitude which resulted in the tactic of USAF pilots dragging MiG pilots 25,000ft and lower, but as you get lower into the thicker air this compressibility is not such an issue and on the deck it is with out issue at all. The MiG-15Bis is much more nimble higher up and the Sabre A-5 can only fight it at low to mid speeds at low to mid heights, correct.
In level powered flight the F-86 will reach supersonic flight especially at higher altitudes. This has since been corrected, The Sabre will only ever reach Mach 1 in a shallow dive and its energy retention will allow it to hold that for longer periods of time. The buffet you experience is the high transonic affects by PeterD, it does not mean you will rip a wing but you can safely fly at mach 1.1 but at 1.2 at sea level you will lose control surfaces, buffet will become much more severe at the point of max speed. The MiG-15Bis will brake apart just above mach but as said below will not be able to achieve near mach in a controlled dive at all.
The F-86F-25E and L have the flying tail or I forget the name, where the elevators can still be operated but the complete horizontal stabilizer can pitch when needed at high speed, this reduces the compressibility issues greatly giving it much better pitch control at high alt and high speed, the aircraft is still no where near as stiff or light as it is at low alt but very stable at all speeds/heights and is highly maneuverable at higher alts.
The MiG-15Bis in real life would not break apart when it hit the sound barrier it can continue diving, however what happens is there is complete loss of roll and pitch control, complete lawn dart,
Firstly Hello, I have been dying to post this update for some time now, talk of how accurate the FMs are not entirely true due to recent findings, fist note
Super Sonic fighters are fighters that fly in level flight above Mach 1.2, The F-86 us not really a true supersonic fighter, It spends most of its time in transonic flight and cannot reach Mach 1 under its own engine power only in a shallow dive and also easier at higher alts doing the same.
The speed of sound or Mach as you know is different at all altitudes and is measured in TAS, therefore you will appear to reach mach at lower IAS speeds at higher alt. the use of TAS now is important as is the need for a mach gauge. Descriptions of pilot reports can be mirrored in 1:1 human combat.
The original FMs that you guys are flying that have been reported as realistic, at the time of creation they appeared so however, last month I was able to load these aircraft into IL-2 Compare and I noticed straight away the issues. The original FMs were done mainly by Hunin and additional help my self with detail and facts. Testing, pre release FM and other tweaks currently in the FMs Howlin, this was a long time ago to think back and I am certain that each of us had a fair share of work into the original FM (no offense intended at any one mentioned or not mentioned). Since then I have spent many hours in very little days correcting these. I have extensively researched these and have built a very large library of details. The FMs have currently been completely redone by myself with testing by certain friends. My notes on the current FMs and problems are:
o Currently the climb rate of MiG-15Bis is closer to that of a MiG-17 (65m/s), This should be 50m/s based on the earlier 1949 April/July variant, this has been corrected however it is 53.5m/s close enough, I will explain why this compromise later.
o The roll rate of the MiG-15Bis out rolled that of the F-86, this is wrong. The F-86 should roll at 180 deg/s or 2 seconds for a complete roll at all speeds except high speed where it drops to around 3 seconds. The Mig-15 and Bis should roll at 90 degrees a second or roll in 4 seconds, at high speed the MiG-15 would lock up completely however the Bis had boosted ailerons and could manage 6 seconds, the Sabre now out rolls the MiG twice as fast at all speeds, Correct
o The Sabre if rolled continuously for too long (many fast rolls) at low speed will eventually start effects similar to that experienced on the MiG-21 "Auto Rotation", this does not mean it will auto roll, it means it will go into a weird barrel roll where the nose eventually pitches up into the centre causing an easily recoverable flat spin, this was not deliberate but a by product of reaching the limits of FMs which are designed for props, the game has limits with its FM I am not sure it can handle modern complex supersonic fighter flight models, as the performance curve cannot be as accurately defined as say a P-51 Prop, these FMs will do ok with in the current limits, any more and you would have to compromise on areas.
o The Sabre can and does out dive a MiG-15Bis however the MiG-15Bis will out dive the F-86 in an initial dive but the F-86 will accelerate past the MiG and has higher speed tolerance in a dive, it will not brake apart so easily, Correct
o The Sabre A-5 now climbs at its correct climb speed at 38ms, the F-86F-25E (Early Slatted bigger engine) and F-86F-25L (Late with the '6-3' which was retro fitted to earlier models to give it a fixed slat and larger root and wing area) 47m/s
o Power to weight ratio is very important now that you are flying jets just as much as you would think the turn is and climb, it tells you how well you accelerate and recover from a turn fight to gain advantage. The MiG-15Bis is more closer to RL than the late Sabres, it has a Power to Weight Ratio of 0.53 isntead of 0.54. Due to the limits of the FM with jets, (I cannot further discuss publicly). Certain things have had to be increased, such as weight, if I was to add any more weight to the MiG-15Bis it would affect the dive and other natural advantages the Sabre has over the MiG-15Bis.
o The Sabre A-5 has a power to weight ratio that is 37.5 same as real life and is quite accurate in performance
o The F-25 due to similar limitations related to the MiG-15Bis it has been refined and has a slightly higher thrust to weight and correct climb, this does even the odds in the climb much closer.
o The current original MiG-15Bis and Sabre A-5 fly far too fast at all heights, accelerate too well and black out easily. Corrected
o Peter D after a discussion between each other and extensive research on the high transonic speed effects that each plane suffered from, has created some very nice and interesting effects that are close to what the reports have said. The F-86A-5 like the MiG-15 locks up at high speed at high altitude this is due to it having a regular tail, roll was unaffected. The aircraft now loses not all but much control in pitch at high speed and high altitude which resulted in the tactic of USAF pilots dragging MiG pilots 25,000ft and lower, but as you get lower into the thicker air this compressibility is not such an issue and on the deck it is with out issue at all. The MiG-15Bis is much more nimble higher up and the Sabre A-5 can only fight it at low to mid speeds at low to mid heights, correct.
In level powered flight the F-86 will reach supersonic flight especially at higher altitudes. This has since been corrected, The Sabre will only ever reach Mach 1 in a shallow dive and its energy retention will allow it to hold that for longer periods of time. The buffet you experience is the high transonic affects by PeterD, it does not mean you will rip a wing but you can safely fly at mach 1.1 but at 1.2 at sea level you will lose control surfaces, buffet will become much more severe at the point of max speed. The MiG-15Bis will brake apart just above mach but as said below will not be able to achieve near mach in a controlled dive at all.
The F-86F-25E and L have the flying tail or I forget the name, where the elevators can still be operated but the complete horizontal stabilizer can pitch when needed at high speed, this reduces the compressibility issues greatly giving it much better pitch control at high alt and high speed, the aircraft is still no where near as stiff or light as it is at low alt but very stable at all speeds/heights and is highly maneuverable at higher alts.
The MiG-15Bis in real life would not break apart when it hit the sound barrier it can continue diving, however what happens is there is complete loss of roll and pitch control, complete lawn dart,
11.11.2009, 20:42
My post isn't going to go into as much technical detail as Lt.Wolf has allready covered that and to be honest I have gone nearly completly off what Lt.Wolf has told me whilst he was researching, we have however spent a lot of time flying the planes against each other and here is what I have to say:
After reading this thread I am rather dissapointed to see what has happened, okay the original FM's for the F-86 and the Mig15 were not accurate, after talking with Lt.Wolf about this he stated to me that the FM's were not extensivly tested ingame, this resulted in about 2/3 weeks of him researching the plane and reading the accounts of pilots from the Korean war.
We then tested and tested the plane and we did it for one simple fact, Lt.Wolf and myself think everything should be as accurate as it can possibly be which resulted in Lt.Wolf getting very fustrated and eventually both aircraft were as correct as they could possibly be, we have had many dogfights and the truth is that we have needed to use all of the tactics that were used in the korean war, both planes have the same advantages and disadvantages that they had, the new FM's are outstanding in every way and were made to be outstanding for this one simple reason.
The Mig 15 and the F-86 Sabre should both be the base which all other Korean war aircraft made for IL-2 should follow.
Oh and another thing, the aircraft were in the Beta stage, what makes people think they can correct something themselves and release that FM before those planes are off Beta without even asking the modder who is making the plane for permission. Beta planes are Beta for one reason, they have faults and issues that need correcting by the people that are working on that mod.
After reading this thread I am rather dissapointed to see what has happened, okay the original FM's for the F-86 and the Mig15 were not accurate, after talking with Lt.Wolf about this he stated to me that the FM's were not extensivly tested ingame, this resulted in about 2/3 weeks of him researching the plane and reading the accounts of pilots from the Korean war.
We then tested and tested the plane and we did it for one simple fact, Lt.Wolf and myself think everything should be as accurate as it can possibly be which resulted in Lt.Wolf getting very fustrated and eventually both aircraft were as correct as they could possibly be, we have had many dogfights and the truth is that we have needed to use all of the tactics that were used in the korean war, both planes have the same advantages and disadvantages that they had, the new FM's are outstanding in every way and were made to be outstanding for this one simple reason.
The Mig 15 and the F-86 Sabre should both be the base which all other Korean war aircraft made for IL-2 should follow.
Oh and another thing, the aircraft were in the Beta stage, what makes people think they can correct something themselves and release that FM before those planes are off Beta without even asking the modder who is making the plane for permission. Beta planes are Beta for one reason, they have faults and issues that need correcting by the people that are working on that mod.
11.11.2009, 20:56
HH_Cipher Wrote:Im going to go ahead and move this to the beta mods section. To be honest, its not a full mod, and it still has problems which need outlining. No offense Freddy. Hope you understand.
Just to prove my point it was moved here because of what? It has problems that need outlining, anyone volunteer to finish this mod before he has the chance and make it into what they think it should be?
12.11.2009, 04:43
Hi Lt.Wolf and FlyingCircus ,
You have to understand my Corea mod is a separate mod , it s not to " finish " your mod before you !
For this reason it have totaly different entries , class java and fm ...
For several month , my friends and me have tested too the jets into the game , and we have some ideas too about this subject ... lol
We need a Corea pack cause we fly in Corea every week ...
But you have done too a very good job , I don t want to say the mine is better , the best in my opinion is to let the choice to the players ...
Yes I ve used the external 3d for Sabre and Mig15 from peter D , but he knew that , we have talked in PM ...
In response , he s free to use my cockpit if he wants ...
I m a modder too and I m able to make a 3d external model too , no problem , but Peter D have done it , and it s a very very good job , so I use it ...
The same , Peter D knows how to make a cockpit , but perhaps he will use the mine ...
As you know , 3D modeling is a very long works , it s better if several modders work togheter ...
Cause I m tired about the fights for the FM , I do the best I can , and I let the players choose ...
When you buy a simulator you have no choice , with mods you have it
The problem is a lot of players prefer a FM cause they want to follow a particular modder , but they don t look at the real spec of the aircraft to see if his fM is more realistic than another or not ..
At last , I hope the best for your mod , and the best for mine :wink: !
Best regards
You have to understand my Corea mod is a separate mod , it s not to " finish " your mod before you !
For this reason it have totaly different entries , class java and fm ...
For several month , my friends and me have tested too the jets into the game , and we have some ideas too about this subject ... lol
We need a Corea pack cause we fly in Corea every week ...
But you have done too a very good job , I don t want to say the mine is better , the best in my opinion is to let the choice to the players ...
Yes I ve used the external 3d for Sabre and Mig15 from peter D , but he knew that , we have talked in PM ...
In response , he s free to use my cockpit if he wants ...
I m a modder too and I m able to make a 3d external model too , no problem , but Peter D have done it , and it s a very very good job , so I use it ...
The same , Peter D knows how to make a cockpit , but perhaps he will use the mine ...
As you know , 3D modeling is a very long works , it s better if several modders work togheter ...
Cause I m tired about the fights for the FM , I do the best I can , and I let the players choose ...
When you buy a simulator you have no choice , with mods you have it
The problem is a lot of players prefer a FM cause they want to follow a particular modder , but they don t look at the real spec of the aircraft to see if his fM is more realistic than another or not ..
At last , I hope the best for your mod , and the best for mine :wink: !
Best regards
12.11.2009, 05:41
Hi Lt.Wolf and FlyingCircus,
I'm flying for some months now with Freddy's squad
and as he said we are flying over Corea every week. So i can say we don't rush to release those planes before everyone. There were months of testing. All is in the readme, we are not agree with the game limitations and Freddy is working to put off.
the histomod corea pack comes from a different philosophy of AAA and two versions can exist. Players can make their choice
Lt.Wolf Wrote:... These FMs are not rushed and have been the work of my self and friends help in the initial stages, extensive research and must say that these are as close as can be to real life with in the games limitations.
I'm flying for some months now with Freddy's squad
and as he said we are flying over Corea every week. So i can say we don't rush to release those planes before everyone. There were months of testing. All is in the readme, we are not agree with the game limitations and Freddy is working to put off.
the histomod corea pack comes from a different philosophy of AAA and two versions can exist. Players can make their choice
12.11.2009, 05:51
My notes are solely related to my updated FMs they are by no means an attack at any one or anything. Dont read too much between the lines 
As for your cockpit Freddy, I think it is your best work yet. btw there has been a fix to stop aircraft from blowing up when you hit Mach, it has been in use for many months now, just in case that is what you were refering to earlier.
As for your cockpit Freddy, I think it is your best work yet. btw there has been a fix to stop aircraft from blowing up when you hit Mach, it has been in use for many months now, just in case that is what you were refering to earlier.
12.11.2009, 15:48
The Mig15 contrail Glitch seems to be back, and Peter's current patch doesn't seem to work with the new plane, the path for the patch is wrong.
12.11.2009, 20:28
Solved the bug about no ejecting canopy !
The fix will come tomorrow ...
I ll fix the contrail too ...
The fix will come tomorrow ...
I ll fix the contrail too ...
13.11.2009, 05:19
Hi Freddy, can you please make a make a UP1.8 frendly version. Thanks
13.11.2009, 06:38
Thanks for the Quick fixes Freddy.
13.11.2009, 14:26
COREA PACK MOD buttons file and ini
13.11.2009, 16:01
Hi all, and thanks for the awesome jets!!
However, if I enable the FM folder my IL-2 crashes at least in the following situations:
- if I drop a bomb or open bomb bay doors, that's obviously a conflict with the BombBayDoors mod that is in my Ultr@Pack 1.8
- if I load a mission with Fokker D.XXI Sarja 4 (flyable or AI), that's obviously a conflict with Ranwers D.XXI flyable mod that I've installed
Because of those crashes I have to disable the FM folder. Do I lose any other things than the new G limits and the ejection seat of Sabre?
At least I can fly all the Corea planes without that FM folder, and it's actually funnier with those blackouts that don't actually happen too easily because disabling FM folder seems to also reduce elevator efficiency.
Could the ejection seat of Sabre be redone so that it could work without the FM folder like in Thunderjet and all others?
However, if I enable the FM folder my IL-2 crashes at least in the following situations:
- if I drop a bomb or open bomb bay doors, that's obviously a conflict with the BombBayDoors mod that is in my Ultr@Pack 1.8
- if I load a mission with Fokker D.XXI Sarja 4 (flyable or AI), that's obviously a conflict with Ranwers D.XXI flyable mod that I've installed
Because of those crashes I have to disable the FM folder. Do I lose any other things than the new G limits and the ejection seat of Sabre?
At least I can fly all the Corea planes without that FM folder, and it's actually funnier with those blackouts that don't actually happen too easily because disabling FM folder seems to also reduce elevator efficiency.
Could the ejection seat of Sabre be redone so that it could work without the FM folder like in Thunderjet and all others?
13.11.2009, 18:26
Quote:Could the ejection seat of Sabre be redone so that it could work without the FM folder like in Thunderjet and all othersYes it s possible ...
I will release a new version in few days with all the bugs solved in the same time , I think it s better ...
In my opinion , the best is to play with the folder " FM " actived , if you talk with real jet pilots , you ll understand that the default G effects of the game are not correct ....
Another thing , you ll enjoy more this mod in online game , cause you can understand it only when you turn with a human MiG15 in your F-86 , if you play only with AI , you don t see why it s necessary to do some changes ...
14.11.2009, 18:13
with the G3...and the nuke loaded...when I press the bomb release button the game freezes
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