[Loht773]

The Panzerschiff (Pocket Battelship Deustchland Class) Admiral Graf Spee was one of Germanys most powerfull ships at the begining of the war.

It was designed under the treaty of versailles, wich meant it had to weight 10.000 tons and had to be armed with 28 CM cannons. The allies expected a light Battelship wich was going to be inferior to theyre Deradnoughts. However this so called Pocket Battelship ended up being superior to all the allied ships, it was faster than any other ship, its guns had tremendous fire power, it was radar equiped, and counted with an Arado AR-196 sea scout airplane to hunt its prays.

It ended up being a mayor headache to the allies who expected a very very weak Kriegsmarine,


the Spee was a real sword of the sea. It was a revoloutionary ship, its deck was thin (like a sword) it was underweight making it very very fast and its structure was build in order to take heavy enemy rounds with little damage because the most important sectores of the ship were re inforced with special plates to reduce the hit of the bullet.

Not to mention it was Deisel powered, it reached a maximum speed of 28,5 knots.

It even counted with torpedoes, and anti aircraft guns...

And know youre asking, why this ship?


I will tell you, The Admiral Graf Spee is a legend in South America becuase of its tragical end during the Battle Of The River Plate. Wich happend in 1939 on the shores of Uruguay, the population of Montevideo cold see and hear the tremendous gun fire and see the flashes of the cannons on the horizon, it was the very last true sea battle beacuse it didnt counted with air sopport. The HMS Exeter, HMS Achilles and HMS Ajax gave end to the beast, the Spee was badly wounded and it made a run for the port of Montevideo, it seeked its wounds to be healed there. However Uruguay (like Argentina) had very good relationships with the British goverment and refused to help the Spee. So Captain Langsdorff had 3 options to make.
1) He go out there as wounded as he was and fight to the death with the 3 English Battel ships and the posibility of an English Aircraft carrier being there existed since one was on its way.
2) He would surrender the ship to the Uruguay wich would end up in the hands of the British anyway.
And 3) He would leave most of his men in Uruguay set sail with a couple of men and blow the ship out of the water with TNT infront of the eyes of the enemy wich included the posibility of him being called a Coward by his superiors.

His decided to go for option number 3 (the most honorable one I belive because a commanders number one priotrty its the wellfare of its men), most of the crew was left in Montevideo and he and small group of men got the Spee out of Montevideo. They placed charges on the Spee and were taken out of there by some german merchant ships.

The Spee blew up, and it remains there buried in the mud of the River Plate. Its one hell of a story and I belive it should take part on IL-2 1946.

What do you guys think?

Kindest Regards!


















http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_battleship Deustchland Class

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pock..._Graf_Spee Admiral Graf Spee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNIHegUd1C0 Video

[highlander_262]

Always loved that part of history and the idea of the pocket battleship to get round tonnage restrictions but as you say it was scuttled in 1939 so its a bit like having a Hawker Hector or a Gloster Gauntlet in the sim. Nice to have and did take part at the start but had no impact on the course of the war so no real value for scenarios or campaigns. Just my two penny worth :wink:

[Loht773]

Well It had an Impact,


thats why the english made all they could to destroy the Spee wich was a real menance to the allied Merchant ships, it had already sunk 9 of them and was trying to end the allied supremacy over the South Atlantic.

There are some theories about the Spee trying to take over Falklands and some other islands to control the South Atlantic wich are not truly precise lets say but it was a possibily. If the HMS Ark Royal would have arrived and the Spee got out of Montevideo it would have being an important aerial attack on the Spee.


"Hunting the Graf Spee
In October, Ark Royal was redeployed to Freetown to operate off the African coast in the hunt for the German commerce raider Graf Spee. The carrier was assigned to Force K, and sailed with the battlecruiser HMS Renown to the South Atlantic.[5] On 9 October, aircraft from Ark Royal spotted the German tanker Altmark, which supplied Graf Spee. The tanker was disguised as the US vessel Delmar, which fooled the British into passing her by.[27] On 5 November, Ark Royal captured the German merchant SS Uhenfels, which was attempting to reach Germany. The ship was later taken into British service as a cargo ship[28] and renamed Empire Ability.[29] Several neutral merchant ships were also spotted by the carrier's aircraft, twice causing crews to believe they were under attack and abandon ship.[30] A note explaining the situation was dropped in a bag to a Norwegian vessel's crew, and they re-boarded; an attempt to repeat this exercise with a Belgian crew failed when the bag was dropped down the ship's funnel.[30]

By this time, Graf Spee had put into Montevideo to repair damage received during the battle of the River Plate. Several British cruisers followed the raider, and patrolled the harbour entrance while reporting Graf Spee

[asheshouse]

Well, I think to be useful in IL-2 a ship must be historically relevant to air operations. This doesn't really apply to the Graf Spee. The actions it was involved in were essentially ship to ship, with maybe minor involvement for Walrus seaplanes, blown up on the catapult of HMS Exeter?

However ----- The Graf Spee was one of a class which included Lutzow and Admiral Scheer, both of which were involved extensively in the Baltic and around Norway, including Atlantic sorties. So a model of Graf Spee would be useful if it could also represent the other two.

[Loht773]

Well, that might work. It would be nice to fly scout missions on the Ar 196 the Spee had, unfortunatlly there are no mods wich allow planes to comunicate with ships, wich is very hard to do I belive.



Cheers!

[Guest]

Let us remember that this ship was able to sink unarmed merchant vessels, which some could argue were legitimate targets as they were contributing to the UK war effort. But this is not the stuff that legends are made from. She was also different than her half sisters anyway. This vessel actually had very little effect on the conduct of the war and met a fairly ignominious end in Montevideo rather than face three very inferior and seriously damaged Commonwealth cruisers. Had Langsdorff sailed and fought his way out he would probably have suceeded and the whole history of the war at sea would have been very different, possibly even preventing (by causing the allies to doubt their superiority at sea) the loss of other German Capital ships.

In response to a comment made earlier, the responsibility of a Commanding Officer is to his country, the welfare of his men must always be secondary to this.

I for one do not think it would add anything to the game, unlike the Scharnhorst and her sistership who played an active and much more heroic part in the conduct of the war at sea.

I think she should be left where she lies.

Just my thoughts,

GJE52

[Loht773]

You have youre opinion and I have mine regarding priorities however the Spee had serious damage.


"Exeter

[Guest]

Please do not get me wrong, the German Navy (especially the Submarine Service) served their country well. I did not intend to diminish their contribution. My Father's family all served in the RN during WWII.

You mention the damage done to the Spee, but the damage done to the Exeter and the two light cruisers was considerable as well. The Spee's main armament was quite formidable and I think it was still fully operational, range finding by spotting the fall of shot and making necessary corrections is possible. I only think that the course of history may have been changed if she had come out fighting, whatever the outcome.

Please accept my apologies if I have offended you in any way, that was not my intention.

GJE52

[Loht773]

Dont you worry!

No Harm Taken!

Brave souls youre Family!

Its ok :wink:


Regarding the Spee, Theres on more important thing, the system the Spee had to aim had being damaged, wich considerably reduced its chance to score hits, that was one of the many severe damages the Spee had.

I still dont belive the Spee had a chance as damaged as it was, Langsdorff mistake was to divide its fire power after he hit the HMS Exeter, we could also say he was forced to do that because the Achilies and the Ajax were circuling around it forcing the Spee to devide its fire.

Lets also remember the Spee had 36 dead on board and lots of wounded, wich of course matters during battle.

I would really like to see the Spee in game or at least some of its twin brothers.

Kindest Regards!

[RedChico]

Is this a ship request or a discussion about Graf Spee?

[Loht773]

It is a ship request

[mishapilot]

Nice Kampfschiff ! We really need more AUTHENTICAL ships in game

[Ace12541]

Spell Check please =P

[Scharnhorst1943]

Well ... for what it is worth, here are my opinions regarding ship requests ...

As much as I love ships of the Kriegsmarine ... (Look at my screen name :wink: ) I would rather have ships that were extensively involved in air operations. We already have a model for the Tirpitz, the sister ship of Bismarck, and these were the only two major German surface ships sunk or helped sunk by aircraft. Alot more happened in the Mediterranean Theater.

If we have to have Europe ships, I would rather see Italian Battleships and Cruisers. There were several MAJOR convoy battles in the Med and I believe they involved either British Carriers or CVE's. There were also several Italian Battleships sunk in Toronto harbor by Swordfish from a British CV in 1940.

But even then, MUCH more happened in the Pacific in regards to anit-shipping missions. I think we need a Kongo and Yamato class Battleship moddels before anything else. There were two ships of the Kongo class sunk by American aircraft as both Musashi and Yamato were sunk by American planes as well. This does not get into Japanese cruisers sunk by USA planes from Henderson Field from Guadalcanal. I would also like to see ACCURATE American battleship moddels for the Pearl Harbor Attack ... always been a big pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, I feel the Pacific Theater in this game needs WAY more attention than Europe or even Mediterranean. The number of ship models we have for the PTO is so pathetic it is offensive ... I am sorry but pretending that a King George V class battleship is the IJN Yamato just doesn't do it for me. Same thing for Pearl Harbor ... Pretending that the King George V class battleship represents 4 different classes of American battleships is just ludicrous.

To me it is the same as saying, "Just us the Bf-110 in place of a Ki-45, they're close enough."

... I would rather have PTO ships ... just my opinion ...

[asheshouse]

If we have to have Europe ships, I would rather see Italian Battleships and Cruisers. There were several MAJOR convoy battles in the Med and I believe they involved either British Carriers or CVE's. There were also several Italian Battleships sunk in Toronto harbor by Swordfish from a British CV in 1940.

I couldn't agree more. In terms of air/sea/land operations covering a relatively limited area but extending over many years the MTO is probably the most important area to be covered. At present we have no battleships represented for this theatre for either side and only a single CV type, Illustrious class. Lots could be done.

--- but your comments on PTO are absolutely right. What a shame that there are no battleships represented in the IJN or USN, and there are so many important carriers missing, and cruisers (the workhorses). Even Force Z which is part represented is missing HMS Repulse.

Ashe