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BF109s in Need of a Mirror - Printable Version

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+---- Thread: BF109s in Need of a Mirror (/showthread.php?tid=51491)

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- Brophmeister - 03.12.2007

Bee Wrote:
Brophmeister Wrote:I think most mirrors were removed from the 109 because thevibrations were enough that you couldn't see a thing in them. But I will vote yes because the F4F and P-51 now have modded mirrors which gives them an unfair advantage.

So begins the arms race.

I genuinely do believe it gives them an unfair advantage. In real life the mirrors would have vibrated too much to make them uself, and create a bit of extra drag. But this isn't modelled in IL2 so mirror give a perfect, crisp image. I think the only way to even it out is to give everybody mirrors, or take all of them away entirely (which can't be done now, the P-51 and Hellcat mods are already out there).

- RAF_Magpie - 03.12.2007

Well there is the option of - no more mirrors for anything else...

As for the 109's, if only the really early buggers had them, just give them to those perhaps? Meh, I like me 109's just the way they are... and getting bounced from behind is actually rather fun - more up to he who can creep up there & itch it...

- Willy - 03.12.2007

Brophmeister Wrote:
Bee Wrote:
Brophmeister Wrote:I think most mirrors were removed from the 109 because thevibrations were enough that you couldn't see a thing in them. But I will vote yes because the F4F and P-51 now have modded mirrors which gives them an unfair advantage.

So begins the arms race.

I genuinely do believe it gives them an unfair advantage. In real life the mirrors would have vibrated too much to make them uself, and create a bit of extra drag. But this isn't modelled in IL2 so mirror give a perfect, crisp image. I think the only way to even it out is to give everybody mirrors, or take all of them away entirely (which can't be done now, the P-51 and Hellcat mods are already out there).
The "unfair advantage" argument is getting really old :roll: and has hidden dangers Confusedhock:

If your in this to play a game where there have to be rules and fairness so that you can score your virtual points and win your game in the relaxed knowledge that everything is fair and no-one has an un-fair advantage...I suggest you all fly the same aircraft. Then and only then is it fair. Then and only then does pilot ability stand on it's own to be counted.

If your wanting a historical representation of a fight, then I suggest you be big and accept the fact that the 109 never had a mirror and get on with it, in the comforting knowledge that war was anything but fair.

The Hellcat got mirrors added as a fix, quite simply as they were a factory fitted component of the aircraft that was omitted in the game.

The point I agree with here is about the P-51. The percentage of P-51's used by the USAAF in WW2 with mirrors fitted was tiny, but here we are now where all the P-51D's have them.

The result is everyone who wants a mirror on anything will use this as an excuse to have one.

The game engine does not support customisation of aircraft in this way, so I don't think customised aircraft should be represented unless the game engine can be suitably modified to handle them properly.

So now where do you go. If you put mirrors on all aircraft, what then? Mk.108's on Mustangs in the interest of fairness?

Bee is absolutely right, what your doing here is inciting an arms race...one you will struggle to control.

- Uther - 03.12.2007

Personally,I don't see a problem with it.Some 109's had mirrors fitted 'in the field',so why can't I fit one to my 109? If you don't want one,then don't 'fit' one to your 109.
The argument about vibrations making the mirrors useless is a valid one,but the same would go for the Hurri, Spit, F4f, P51 etc etc.
If someone makes this mod,I would use it.

- Brophmeister - 03.12.2007

Willy, I DON'T want a mirror on the 109. That was my original point! Its innacurate! My second point was that ALL the mirrors in the game are innacurate!

- Willy - 03.12.2007

Ok Brophmeister, I must have missed that point, where you said you would vote yes to it, sorry for that :?

At any rate I see no easy solution, but would prefer things to be kept as historic as possible. Taking your point about the vibration in the mirrors (which to me seems reasonable), I would go more for finding a solution to add vibrations to the existing mirrors, thereby making them more realistic, than simply handing out crap mirrors to all and sundry with a view to some kind of balance.

For what it's worth, I flew 109's online in a squad when I had more spare time. I, like you, want to keep it historically correct when I fly it...no mirror :mrgreen:

- ={TTU}=Tomcat - 03.12.2007

Yes they were an rear exeption,and in g2 and g6 with the new mouse mod you cant chek your 6 that easy :S but about the telescoupe is it posible to add like an option of binoculars? many war time pilots broth binoculars to flyight to see the targets so what do you think?

- Sturmbock - 03.12.2007

Well, if some one wants to fly 109Es historically correct and use the mirror at same time:

[Image: mirror1uv0.jpg]
[Image: mirror2nq6.jpg]
[Image: mirror3sc8.jpg]
[Image: mirror4op4.jpg]
[Image: mirror5wh5.jpg]
[Image: mirror6ox1.jpg]
[Image: mirror7vp9.jpg]
[Image: mirror8fi5.jpg]
[Image: mirror9ne4.jpg]
[Image: mirror10jr4.jpg]
[Image: mirror11un3.jpg]
[Image: mirror12tb6.jpg]
[Image: mirror13yk4.jpg]

Any way at the end of November all these mirrors were removed, the rear view in a 109 was better with a wingman, the mirror was not useful (to many vibrations).

By the way P-51D had exactly the same problem with mirrors but better rear view, for that reason no many mirrors in pictures.

- Sturmbock - 03.12.2007

Quote:but about the telescoupe is it posible to add like an option of binoculars? many war time pilots broth binoculars to flyight to see the targets so what do you think?

Binoculars are implemented in the game with

- fly_zo - 03.12.2007

... and the next is tempest ....IMHO , what the heck give them all mirrors cos visibility isn't modeled historically in game anyway...

Z

- ={TTU}=Tomcat - 03.12.2007

[quote="Sturmbock"]
Quote:but about the telescoupe is it posible to add like an option of binoculars? many war time pilots broth binoculars to flyight to see the targets so what do you think?

Binoculars are implemented in the game with

- Uther - 03.12.2007

Could someone make the mirror just for the early models?

- gbollin - 03.12.2007

If the Planes had Mirrors Then I think It should be allowed.
But if can see an enemy in your rear view mirror Then might be too Late.

- RDDR - 03.12.2007

Maybe I should have listened a little more before I posted.

If folks want them Hey!! Why not.
I personally find them irrittating ,but thats just me.
I'm probably going to get shot down with or without one. :roll:

- Uther - 03.12.2007

Then it seems that everyone is happy with a k14 gyro sight on the Spitfires,but not a mirror on an early 109? :roll: