P-47 Thunderbolt cockpit modding references and discussion - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: P-47 Thunderbolt cockpit modding references and discussion (/showthread.php?tid=51680)

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- Tonin - 18.06.2008

First of all, many thanks for your efforts, it looks fantastic !

So here a little link :
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2300&hl=en

This is a french documentary, hope you guys undestand most of it.
Basically, this is the story of the 57th Fighter Group [64e (Black Scorpions), 65e (Fighting Cocks) and 66e (Exterminators) squadrons ] while they were based at Alto (corsica) in 1944.

You'll discover some very nice jugs shots !

Bye now!

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- taurus - 19.06.2008

Thanks Tonin for the link, More reference again.

I can sense Diablo tapping away on the keyboard so here is a wip on a texture render experiment for the throttle quadrant, to be refined.




Cheers.

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- poncho - 19.06.2008

Taurus,

That looks great

I hate to ask this, but is there a possibility of widening the throttle channel by about 2x and adjusting the positions of the other channels to even things out. The Tempest throttle lever is a bit wider than the stock lever. :? If this were possible the new throttle lever would fit better and the positions of the other levers could be repositioned in the .him file as needed. Sorry to complicate things.

Poncho

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- chris455 - 19.06.2008

Taurus/Poncho:
If you guys need specific references to anything, post it here and we will be happy to help look for it.
it's not much but the more eyes we have on the lookout, hock: the more references we're sure to find.

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- taurus - 19.06.2008

poncho Wrote:is there a possibility of widening the throttle channel by about 2x and adjusting the positions of the other channels to even things out. The Tempest throttle lever is a bit wider than the stock lever. :? If this were possible the new throttle lever would fit better and the positions of the other levers could be repositioned in the .him file as needed. Sorry to complicate things.

No problem Poncho 8). I'll wait for the throttle lever so we can get it to sit right. I've got the rudder pedals to continue on with.

Thanks Tonin for the video reference. Language was no barrier to what is a great video.

Thanks Chris, I'm sure there will be more obscure references buried deep in the interweb/library.

Cheers.

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- FA_Diablo - 19.06.2008

taurus Wrote:Thanks Tonin for the link, More reference again.

I can sense Diablo tapping away on the keyboard so here is a wip on a texture render experiment for the throttle quadrant, to be refined.




Cheers.

taurus...you and poncho never fail to amaze me. LOl I am absolutely salivating over your work on MY jug...LOL When this is finished there won't be anotehr pit to rival it and I will be smiling ear to ear...like I'm not already. Pair this pit with poncho's new sites and we have the best looking girl in IL-2. I can see my kill ratio going up already cause I'm in teh sweetest ac in IL-2. Ok...now enough talk...I want taurus and poncho doing nothing all weekend but working on our girl. LOL

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- ShadowGravy - 19.06.2008

Regarding the throttle levers, the sim's original cockpits have the right style for their respective models. From what I can ascertain from wartime operating manuals, the 'Tempest-like' lever was introduced in the last Thunderbolt models.

I believe that the D-40 variant had the grip styled throttle lever installed at the factory. The P-47M probably did as well. The c.1945 training manual for the P-47N is the only vintage manual I've found that specifically illustrates that kind of lever. The photos of the P-47D-30 on display at Warner-Robbins shows the square handled throttle, and that ship reportedly was taken directly off the line in 1947 and put into storage 'as is.'

Of course I'm mostly concerned of how the planes were configured when they left the factory. I'll concede that field kits might have been available to upgrade older planes, or that newer planes were cannibalized to keep older planes flying. I think this is part of the reason why it is so difficult to model a perfectly accurate cockpit; there were so many variations even during the war. Thunderbolts in postwar service (either with the USAF/National Guard or with foreign air forces) probably were usually field upgraded until retired completely; some were being used well into the 1960s. Modern restorations are usually a hodge-podge of available vintage instruments and various required modern instruments. Airshow and museum photographs are therefore usually of a limited value as historical references.

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- chris455 - 20.06.2008

Poncho , I am very sorry.
I believe Shadowgravy may be right. My earlier ascertations that the D models all had the Tempest type handle were baased on restorations. Looking at original references shadowgravy has provided would support the plain old ball style handle for all but perhaps the D27 late, if that.
I hope I haven't derailed your progress too badly. :oops:

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- ShadowGravy - 20.06.2008

Pilot familiarization films, circa 1943. Skip to about 14 minutes on the first one and the instructor starts pointing out various cockpit controls. Note that:

1. The throttle handle is the square kind.
2. The turbo overspeed light is explained.
3. The landing gear light is a single light positioned above the instrument panel.

There may be better versions of these films that can be viewed for free on the web. Zeno's Warbird Theater hosts compressed versions of some of these films for free; I think I've seen these on YouTube as well. I have them all on a DVD from Zeno's Flight Shop.

Edit: I noticed that "P-47D-5RE" is stenciled on the bulkhead in a cockpit scene in Part II of this film series, "Ground Handling, Takeoff, Normal Flight and Landing."

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- ShadowGravy - 20.06.2008

chris455 Wrote:Poncho , I am very sorry.
Looking at original references shadowgravy has provided would support the plain old ball style handle for all but perhaps the D27 late, if that.

Actually, there is an illustration on page 8 of the November, 1943 edition of the Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for the razorback Thunderbolts (AN 01-65BC-1) that shows two styles of throttle quadrants.

The first throttle has the ball-tipped throttle lever and is labeled by an arrow pointing to the lower part of the quadrant: "Power switch built into quadrant on P-47D-11RE and subsequent airplanes."

The second throttle has a square handled throttle lever with a switch on top and is labeled with an arrow pointing to the switch: "Power switch P-47D-5RE through P-47D-10RE inclusive."

This diagram appears to be showing the water injection switches. A block of text directely above the illustration reads:
(2) WATER INJECTION CONTROL - A system of water injection is provided to safeguard the engine from detonation during operation at emergency military power. When required the system is activated by a toggle switch located on the throttle control knob.

Interestingly, the January, 1943 (ie, earlier) edition of this same manual makes no reference to the square handled throttle lever. All of the illustrations, even those specifically for the P-47B cockpit, show only the ball tipped throttle lever. It seems to me that the ball handled lever was used up until the P-47D-5RE variant. The water injection was, according to my sources, introduced with the P-47D-4RA model so this probably accounts for the change in throttle handle immediately after. The vintage flight instructions say the ball tipped handle then went back into use starting with the P-47D-11RE variant. This accounts for throttles up to late 1943...

Now we turn to the January, 1945 Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions that exclusively covers the bubble-topped 'D' models, specifically the P-47D-25 through P-47D-30 variants. There are only two illustrations in the manual that show a throttle quadrant, but both show an improved version of the square handled throttle lever. Page 4, Figure 6 -- Engine Control Quadrant even labels the important parts of the quadrant. On top of the thottle handle is what looks like a sliding thumb switch surrounded by the markings "Water," "On," and "Sol." This thumb switch is labeled as the Water Injection Switch on the illustration's key. A button at the base of the square handle, and facing toward the pilot, is labeled as the Push-to-talk Button.

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- ShadowGravy - 20.06.2008

Ahhh, I think I'm on to something here...

The P-47N training manual has an illustration for the P-47N's throttle quadrant and it shows it having the long, rounded grip. The illustration's key reads:

"2. Throttle. The twist grip is used for ranging with the K-14 gunsight. The button turns on the radio microphone."

For the P-47D models, the K-14 was only factory installed in the P-47D-40 but some previous models were upgraded with K-14 field kits. The P-47M on my opening post has a K-14 gunsight and that explains why it has the rounded grip; the P-47D-30 has a Mk. VIII gunsight so it has a square throttle grip. (The P-47G's throttle remains a mystery to me.)

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- chris455 - 20.06.2008

So................
We would expect to find the "Tempest Style" grip only on A/C that had been fitted with the K-14 sight?

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- FA_Diablo - 20.06.2008

Good finds Shadowgravy. Looks like maybe we can use a Ball handle foir the D-10, square handle for the D-22 and D-27 and possibly a new rounded handle or even the Tempest handle for the D-Late. After all the D-Late can be an M or possibly a D-35-40 model. I think we could still use the Tempest handle on the Late still and be historic from what I'm reading. I'm not sure we can have that many pits tho in the game. Possibly huh? It also sounds like the Tempest handle and a possible new rounded handle would need to ahve the Water Injection button modeled onto the top of the handle.

No matter she is still looking great and we have some new possibilities here. I can live with either a new long rounded handle or the Tempest handle. I am so excited about flying in my new "office" as Chris calls her. LOL I wondered too about the Tempest handle as I had nevfer seen in any pictures or videos that I had seen anything but the long square handle.

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- poncho - 20.06.2008

chris455 Wrote:Poncho , I am very sorry.
I believe Shadowgravy may be right.

I am crushed, but I will push on somehow.

Facts are facts.

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- chris455 - 20.06.2008

A little Jug humor to cheer you up;

It is said that when the first P-47Bs landed at their new airbase at Boxstead, England, an excited
RAF ground crewman ran up to the huge aircraft, and, scarcely believing that the behemoth could actually leave the ground, greeted the pilot with the nervous question:

"Is anyone else getting out?" hock:

I love that story..............

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