[MOD] AI Mod V.17 *UPDATE* - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: [MOD] AI Mod V.17 *UPDATE* (/showthread.php?tid=58844)

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- carmelid - 26.01.2009

ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP Wrote:If a pair split they will quickly get separated in combat, until the fight is mainly one-on-one. This actually happened in the original Il-2. The attempt to have pairs stick together so that they can assist each other later in the fight was a new feature in Il-2FB (and much welcomed by the community). I wouldn't remove it.

The problem is that they do not help each other at all. In fact, this aspect in the IL-2 AI coding is one of the worst AI implementation I have seen so far. You may download the "Bad wingman.TRK" file and take a look at this track file to see how bad it is (well, my gunnery skills are just as bad, but let's leave it for a different thread :mrgreen: ):
http://cid-c27b32fd4fe3ea5c.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/Bad%20wingman.TRK

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Re: [MOD] AI Mod V.17 *UPDATE* - Xoddam - 26.01.2009

certificate,

"..so let me know of any bugs/suggestions/observations!"

Okay, here it goes. Here's a list of AI fixes I proposed I've posted earlier on UBI forums (a very long time ago):

AI related fixes/improvements (maybe not all)

* real tactics for type of plane

e.g. in the early stages of the war for the British (and Russians) quite common to use flights of three in tight V formation while the Germans used the finger four formation which gave them much more room to manouver. Later on, the British also used the finger four formation and formed the so-called big wing formations to attack large bombers formations. Tactics changed during the war. In the early stages of the war the Germans had a clear tactical advantage, but as the war progressed the Allies adopted these tactics and the tactical advantage the Germans had was gone. Flying AI should focus more on maintaning and exploiting energy. The AI is still a lot better at exploiting the capabilities of T&B planes than B&Z ones, because B&Z ones need another AI tactic when it comes to flying.

Often B&Z ones still try to turn with the enemy or let the enemy fighters get too close on their tail. Exceptionally manouverable fighters like e.g. I-16, later Yak versions and LA5/7's have the ability to quickly go over to the defensive and escape, but those that are better suited for B&Z are normally not capable of doing this. Their best defense and attack is speed and this requires AI that better plan their manouvers and exploit the true capabilities of their plane.

It would be great if the AI would have some limited knowledge of the pro's and con's of the type of their own and their opponents plane. Afterall this is one of the key factors that in the end determines flying tactic's. I'm not sure if this implemented in some way into the current AI, but maybe this will allow them to let them execute more effective ACM.

* other AI tactics

One other thing that could be improved is the way friendly fighters fight with eachother to shoot down an opponent. If an element is already engaged, I think the others should keep more distance or should just cover the first element, especially when no other threats are around. Why not fly some 1500 ft. above them so the can cover the first element and are in better position to attack possible others? (maybe some random behavior here would be nice)

* fatigue for human and AI
* heavy breathing due to high G's
* run away tactics (lack of fuel or just scared because outnumbered or inferior plane)
* don't always attack the leading plane
* don't see through clouds
* use clouds for cover
* circle above/around clouds and wait for others to pop up
* don't circle at low altitude above strong defended AAA places
* change altitude and direction when fired upon by AAA
* Ground vectoring
* head on pass by veterans and aces on bombers
* fighter cover that stays with bombers while other attack enemy fighters (if not outnumbered)
* single pass for ace and veterans that do B&Z (do not even try to T&B)
* Ground AI that defends itself (Ships that produce smoke screens, enemy columns split up formation)
* AI that position themselves above and behind you while you try to get a good position for some bombers (i.e. sound tactics)
- takeoff and land in pairs when possible on wide runways

Other AI related stuff:

- AI that can be queried:
* where are you?
* what's your status? (fuel, damage, RTB, engaged, at your six, etc, etc.)

- AI that informs you of relevant facts:
* bandit at your 10 o'clock low;
* enemy column at 1 o'clock, 3 miles;
* wingman reporting to you: 'fuel low, damaged, out of ammo, RTB';
* wingman reporting to you they're attacking their primairy target

- AI that requests (when human flight leader is present):
* permission to attack enemy bandits? (stay in formation, otherwise attack freely but prioritize i.e attack fighters before bombers;

- AI that can be instructed to do things like:
* flight 1: fly 5 miles ahead of us;
* flight 2: increase height to 20000 ft.
* take up position at left/right flank of bombers.

AI/Mission related AI:

- AI that can be give flight orders/tactics before the mission begins:
* only engage enemy fighters (not bombers);
* only attack ground objects in the designated kill zone;
* when primairy objective is reached, attack freely in predesignated secondary zone (or return to formation);
* e.g. escort flight 1 always stays with the bombers and attacks only: 1) if called upon or 2) are attacked themselves or 3) when bombers are directly threatened;
* e.g. escort 2 always stays 5 miles ahead of the bombers;
* all escort flights can attack freely;

Other AI issues/improvements:

* planes that are low on fuel should have priority when landing;
* first group that take took off, should have highest priority to land when several groups try to land at the same time. They've normally been in the air longest;
* extremely slow moving planes like TB3 still cartwheel when trying to get back in formation so I guess there's a bug there;
* each plane model should have a fixed and, I think, very relaxed cruising speed (Maybe this ought to be AI controlled instead of mission editor related);
* A more relaxed way of AI trying to get back into formation is acceptable for me; If you as leader make hard sudden turns, don't expect others to follow immediately. Some distance is quite acceptable and make it more real;
* When low on fuel or damaged -> RTB;
* When out of ammo, stay out of trouble and try to stay near friendly fighters;
* Let planes fly defensive circles to cover eachothers six;
* AI should recognize enemy flak and change formation, altitude or direction (when it's not their target);
* AI escort planes should stay clear of enemy flak when over the target zone (unless bombers are bounced by enemy fighters ofcourse);
* AI planes should avoid flying over occupied enemy airbases when on route (unless given attack or it's their target). Some things can be done in the mission planner, but in the game planes e.g. trying to get still fly over heavy flak defended bases to get back in to formation;
* AI should not see through clouds :-) ;
* AI that use plane with good all around cockpit view (and/or rear view mirrors), should have some SAW advantage;
* AI that fly in big formation should have some SAW advantage (lots of 'friendly' eyes in the sky). Maybe a slightly bigger overall 'SAW bubble' should be used (or smaller bubble for less planes)
* Ace AI should maybe see further than others experience levels;
* AI, when bounced during landing, should put up a fight, run away, hide or scatter;
* AI elements should perhaps sometimes split up earlier when faced with single enemy fighters;

AI that can see/detect and react to certain points of interest, e.g:

- E.g. when AI fighters fly as bomber escorts they see tracers and smoke plumes in the distance and determine to go there.
- AI see's flak, when over friendly territory, and decide "Something's going on over there, must take a look".
- AI that are over enemy territory and detect flak and decide to fly an alternate route to their target, or increase/decrease their alititude;
- AI that automatically reacts to radio call's from or friendly planes that are under threat. Of course only if they are within a short distance, have a free flight role or are involved in the same mission.
- AI that's over enemy ground and recognizes smoke plumes from train's, burning ground objects, dust from ground columns or smokey exhausts and decide it's "interesting, must take a short detour". Ofcourse, only when their mission objective would allow them to do this. If it's a free hunt for jabo's, they must certainly be able to do this.
- AI that react to radio messages from friendly air bases that are under threat. Permitted their role allows them to intercept and only if they are within a short distance.
- AI that 'understand' the difference between an easy and hard ground target. A heavily defended air base is something to be avoided and only permits a single high speed pass. No time to linger above the target for yet another highly dangerous slow speed pass. Just get the hell out of there.
- AI that decides not to attack heavily armoured targets when they no longer have the ammo to do that. If they're out of rocket's or bombs, there's no need to attack some heavy tanks with machine guns. If there are softer targets nearby, target them instead ;-)
- also, the AI currently has very fixed flight patterns when escorting bombers. I would suggest to create a larger set of escort patterns. E.g. one escort flight high, one to the left, one ahead etc, etc. Now all have to placed manually.

Yes, I know a very long list, but maybe it generates some ideas and thoughts on what to fix/improve first.

Regards,
Mark

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- chris455 - 26.01.2009

It may be just a perception, but it seems that the AI are sooooooo fast. They do not bleed E, and their zoom climb is out of this world. I would love to see tha AI hobbled just a bit, to make it seem more like flying against a human opponent.
I think your doing great things, Certificate, keep experimenting.

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- rollnloop - 26.01.2009

Quote:It may be just a perception, but it seems that the AI are sooooooo fast. They do not bleed E, and their zoom climb is out of this world.

I do not have this problem any more since using certificate's mod, even vs ace AI (as long as we have aircraft close in performance, like 109E4 vs SpitMkI, 109G/AS vs Yak3 for example).

xoddam, i guess you'll keep certificate busy for two years with such an exhaustive list :twisted:

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- chris455 - 26.01.2009

Quote: [I do not have this problem any more since using certificate's mod, even vs ace AI (as long as we have aircraft close in performance, like 109E4 vs SpitMkI, 109G/AS vs Yak3 for example).

I wish i could say the same. Just flew P-40Bs vs Ki-27s, and the Ki-s seem like they are equipped with JATO packs, unbelievable zoom climb as well as flat out speed.
Has ALWAYS been a problem w/ the AI

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- rollnloop - 26.01.2009

I just played P-40B vs Ki27otsu ace, just to check. There is no jato nor max speed problem. Of course it's far from obvious when you're boresighted by the little fellow, but once he's at the right place (ie in front of your gun, fleeing), there is no way he can escape, he's caught in 10 to 20 secs, and since it has no imagination, he's dead.

if you want to check use the (spoiler) usual trick vs AI:



1/get to the deck, then turn, AI (even modded in 1.7) can't aim good enough when you turn

2/keep turning, until the AI overshoots (it always overshoots at one moment or the other)

3/once it has overshot, you're in scissors. Win the scissors (quite easy, but be careful not to get into its gunsight, or you may loose)

4/when you win the scissors, AI will extend. Catch it, fire with accuracy from medium range, it's dead. Then you'll see it has no rocket power, at least with 1.7 (but in fact it worked with stock, was just a bit longer to catch)

BTW it would be nice if this trick wouldn't work systematically, in a future version. An AI ace KI27 should be able to force a draw, just by turning at the right point, imo.

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- WillyVonWonka - 26.01.2009

Certificate,

Thanks very much for this incredible modification!!! IL2 certainly needed it. Now I've tried every update since you started, and so far .16 worked excellently, but after work today I downloaded .17 and did a mission flying a 109 F4 on the Lybian map, from the FMB, against 2 P-40 aces. Next to the airfield is a long ridge, not very high, running parallel. I pit the 2 aces to get to me just after I've a chance to take off. And as you know going face to face with an ace is a game of chicken that you'll lose, so I fly to either side to get by them. Well, as I pass them I take a sharp turn to get behind them and before I get to them the leader has plowed into the ridge along, seconds later, with his wingman. I've flown this mission countless times but this has never happened. Moreover, I did this mission 4 times today in a row and each time the same...BLAM! And then...BLAM! I'm just a little worried that perhaps this is a bug...I don't know, seems a little strange though. Anyway, thanks again for the hard work!

Buddha Love
Aviator66

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- Acog - 26.01.2009

4v4, QMB, P38J vs A6M3, AI skill average, altitude 12,000ft, map was pacific islands, time was noon.

I set the auto pilot as soon as I got in the plane. I gave my wingnan orders to cover me, and he peeled off way to far. He should stay withing 1 to 1.5 times the combat turn radius of the 38, but he spread out to around 1.4 on the icons, and at my 3 oclock no less. I'm seeing a lot of US rides going pure vertical with japs a/c on their butts, and that has always been a huge no no.

I'm still seeing the AI over speed their rides (mainly IJN stuff) that should not be able to follow a US iron into a 530mph IAS dive and keep from shedding parts.

I'm loving the vertical moves by the IJN rides, playing to their own advantage, looks good and believable.

Is it possible to make "attack my target" work?

Is it possible to make the "break" command do something?

Overall I'm very impressed. I'll name my next child "cert" if you can make them obey their VNE limits so a US plane can dive away at will and leave jap stuff in the dust.

On the topic of shooting, when the IJN go vertical, and the US rides follow, they are always, every time shooting about 10ft behind the bad guy, just a bit more deflection and it would be great. Only time I see AI get kills is when the target is bleed out of energy and levels up the flight path, or when they reverse their turn and cross the gunsite of the trailing a/c.

And I'm with everyone else, do you ever sleep? =p

Good job and please keep it up!

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- Bo_Nidle - 26.01.2009

This mod is great. I'm having a ball now.Proper dogfights without stupid opponents.

Just had a cracking fight with Romanian IAR80's in a P-38J. Ended up low level over the sea, he was on my tail, then overshot into scissors, me on his tail, he then bunted suddenly and I lost sight of him, next thing I knew he had got behind me again. Another lufberry dropping combat flaps, adjusting trim to tighten the turn until my wingman caught up and scared him out of position in a classic BnZ enabling me to get behind him again and put a good burst into his engine as he tried to climb. He ditched and I actually felt rather sorry for him

So satisfying not have the 3 x roll followed by straight and level, then repeat. You have to work for it now.

Flak seems a little less accurate making airfield attacks a lot more interesting.

Request: Can you make the default formation for a flight of USAAF the "finger four" instead of "echelon right"? It's a pain having to constantly order formation changes.

Appreciate your efforts on this mate, nice job indeed. :wink:

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- Stratodog - 26.01.2009

Bo_Nidle Wrote:Request: Can you make the default formation for a flight of USAAF the "finger four" instead of "echelon right"? It's a pain having to constantly order formation changes.

I'll second that. And the same for USN/USMC fighers.

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- rockyalexander - 26.01.2009

Acog Wrote:4v4, QMB, P38J vs A6M3, AI skill average, altitude 12,000ft, map was pacific islands, time was noon.

I set the auto pilot as soon as I got in the plane. I gave my wingnan orders to cover me, and he peeled off way to far. He should stay withing 1 to 1.5 times the combat turn radius of the 38, but he spread out to around 1.4 on the icons, and at my 3 oclock no less. I'm seeing a lot of US rides going pure vertical with japs a/c on their butts, and that has always been a huge no no.

I'm still seeing the AI over speed their rides (mainly IJN stuff) that should not be able to follow a US iron into a 530mph IAS dive and keep from shedding parts.

I'm loving the vertical moves by the IJN rides, playing to their own advantage, looks good and believable.

Is it possible to make "attack my target" work?

Is it possible to make the "break" command do something?

Overall I'm very impressed. I'll name my next child "cert" if you can make them obey their VNE limits so a US plane can dive away at will and leave jap stuff in the dust.

On the topic of shooting, when the IJN go vertical, and the US rides follow, they are always, every time shooting about 10ft behind the bad guy, just a bit more deflection and it would be great. Only time I see AI get kills is when the target is bleed out of energy and levels up the flight path, or when they reverse their turn and cross the gunsite of the trailing a/c.

And I'm with everyone else, do you ever sleep? =p

Good job and please keep it up!

"Attack my target " works for padlocked targets. It's basically useless otherwise.

"Break" is synonymous with "disengage the enemy," which friendly AI will usually do if so ordered.

Furthermore, if you order your wingman to "attack all fighters" when an enemy is closing on your six, your wingie will usually attack that enemy before he shoots at you. If not, then issue the "anyone help me" command, and your wingman should promptly clear your six. Wingmen have saved my skin many times.

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- certificate - 26.01.2009

Stratodog Wrote:

Bo_Nidle Wrote:Request: Can you make the default formation for a flight of USAAF the "finger four" instead of "echelon right"? It's a pain having to constantly order formation changes.

I'll second that. And the same for USN/USMC fighers.

Sure!

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- RRuger - 26.01.2009

Potenz Wrote:Hi cert!, i just was thinking about somethin last night, i was playing a mission with 2 fighter flights, and i was wondering if you can change the way that fighters form up when are differents flight, what i say is if you can make fighters form up like bomber do in a onw flight and not like it's now that you have the second flight lottering over you like it they are scorting bomber.

Just an idea, you are the master here so you only know if this is possible.

thx

Potenz

Hi Potenz Are you saying that you would like to see changes in formayion flying like from echelon left or echelon right to line abreast or line astern? Or do you mean that you wpold like the fighters to escort fighters like they do bombers, rotating above you as you fly?

On this subject is there a way to get a different formation from the AI rather than always echelon left?

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- Potenz - 26.01.2009

RRuger Wrote:

Potenz Wrote:Hi cert!, i just was thinking about somethin last night, i was playing a mission with 2 fighter flights, and i was wondering if you can change the way that fighters form up when are differents flight, what i say is if you can make fighters form up like bomber do in a onw flight and not like it's now that you have the second flight lottering over you like it they are scorting bomber.

Just an idea, you are the master here so you only know if this is possible.

thx

Potenz

Hi Potenz Are you saying that you would like to see changes in formayion flying like from echelon left or echelon right to line abreast or line astern? Or do you mean that you wpold like the fighters to escort fighters like they do bombers, rotating above you as you fly?

On this subject is there a way to get a different formation from the AI rather than always echelon left?

no what i mean is that now the fighters rotate over fighter like scorting bombers, and if this behave can be changed to secoond flight follows the first as bombers do.

Potenz

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- certificate - 26.01.2009

Potenz Wrote:

RRuger Wrote:

Potenz Wrote:Hi cert!, i just was thinking about somethin last night, i was playing a mission with 2 fighter flights, and i was wondering if you can change the way that fighters form up when are differents flight, what i say is if you can make fighters form up like bomber do in a onw flight and not like it's now that you have the second flight lottering over you like it they are scorting bomber.

Just an idea, you are the master here so you only know if this is possible.

thx

Potenz

Hi Potenz Are you saying that you would like to see changes in formayion flying like from echelon left or echelon right to line abreast or line astern? Or do you mean that you wpold like the fighters to escort fighters like they do bombers, rotating above you as you fly?

On this subject is there a way to get a different formation from the AI rather than always echelon left?

no what i mean is that now the fighters rotate over fighter like scorting bombers, and if this behave can be changed to secoond flight follows the first as bombers do.

Potenz

I'm still not totally clear here Potenz. You want the fighters to form up into one big wing, instead of acting like they're escorting each other?

I'm really not too sure about this, I'll definitely look into it.

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