[MOD] AI Mod V.17 *UPDATE* - Printable Version
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+--- Thread: [MOD] AI Mod V.17 *UPDATE* (/showthread.php?tid=58844)
- tarnsman - 09.03.2009
I just found this mod and installed v 1.7 so far its great. I loaded a couple of my saved dogfight missions and they were much more challenging, the AI now fight in the virticle and I didnt catch them pulling the old rutines. Thanks for takling the artificial "intelegence" I look forward to where you are able to take this.
- Checkyersix - 09.03.2009
Thanks again for this great AI mod, certificate. I have a request because we all know how much modders love them...
I was wondering if it would be possible to create a fifth AI skill level for "night" operations, in which the AI's "sight" range would be more limited (especially bombers), fighters would attack bombers from behind, and possibly, bombers would perform the "corkscrew maneuver", the historical counter to night fighters, in which the bomber would weave and dive to get out of the night-fighter's sight and radar beam.
I know its a specialist request, but if its possible it might add very authentic feel to nightfighting.
Anyway, my 2 cents.
- chanklaus - 09.03.2009
Hi certificate,
first of all I'd like to thank you for this mod, and I'd like to express my deepest respect for your great work. This is a wonderful mod, I'm playing offline and there's a lot that bothers me with the original AI behaviour.
That's why I set a lot of hopes in you to change some things - I guess there aren't many people who dived as deep into the AI behaviour as you did - if any!
What bothers me most with the original Il-2 is the ability of the AI to see you, wherever you are, no matter whether in a cloud, by night, or even if you'd be hanging in his landing gear.
I'd like to share some ideas with you, maybe they give you some useful inspiration. I tried to read through the thread to find out whether I repeat something already written, but I had to give up - I won't have the time to do so. Maybe you already had the same idea - then sorry for bothering you. My idea is based on the assumption that you can modify the "detection radius" dynamically during a program run - if this is not possible, I guess, you don't have to continue reading.
Well, it seems to me that the routine controlling the AI just checks the distance. If AI is nearer than a certain distance (depending on the skill) AI will know you are there. If I had to model that behaviour, I would check for distance and angle. Have a coordinate system sit on the pilot (who is sitting in the origin) - X axis is left to right, Y back to front, Z down to up. The coordinate system is relative, ie on the highest point of a looping Z+ would point to the ground; in a sharp turn X+ might point to the ground.
Now, if I look at a single flying one seater fighter plane even a greenhorn should see me if I am at (0,Y,0) - just in front of his wind shield. If I am hanging at (0,0,Z) - directly below him - even an ace couldn't see me. Now I would work with propabilities: in a still relatively crude model one could say everything with -Y/-Z (behind and below) has a very low probability to be detected (almost zero), -Y/+Z and +Y/-Z a higher one (depending on the skill), and +Y/+Z should have a probability of 100%. The model could be refined by taking aircraft-specific features into account, eg for P-38, which has a better visibility to -Y/-Z. Probabilities could be modulated by taking distance into account (the further away the lower), skill, weather, and time of the day. That would mean, for instance, that by night the probability to detect someone in the same direction as by day would be much smaller.
The routine would then be: check distance and angle, calculate the probability that AI sees me and then create a random value and decide whether or not AI sees me. I'm sure you got my idea.
If it's not a single flying plane it can see me as soon as a comrade can see me. There must already be a routine in the program checking whether one of my comrades is near - if I make a kill I get those "Well done!", "There he goes!" messages, but not if I'm far away from my sqad mates.
In an earlier post someone hit the point of the "hun in the sun" and more or less (as far as I could see) talked about the same thing as I did here - just that my idea is a bit more extended. How to solve the problem with the AI looking through clouds I have no idea - that has to take into account how clouds are modelled, and I have no idea how it's done.
Hope I brought up an idea which inspires you. Please continue your work - the AI behaviour is still a field which offers many yet unsolved problems.
!!! Once again - many thanks for your FANTASTIC work !!!
Best greetings and wishes,
chanklaus
- ColaBen - 09.03.2009
Hi' There !
Having a lot of pleasure from 0.17 AI, a marked improvement ;@)) Can I ask if it is possible to tone down the behaviour of big planes (e.g. Me323) when under attack (by me). They maneuver like small A/C !!
Happy Landings
ColaBen
- virgil_182 - 12.03.2009
This mod is amazing. The perfect example of how the talented modding community is the reason IL2 is still in a class of it's own, long after it should have faded into bargain bins. Oleg and crew should thank you guys for keeping their game competing with the best the sim market has to offer, even today.
For the record, I began playing IL2, fully modded of course, only a week ago. For years I never gave it a chance because of a few issues that killed immersion for me....... the modding community has solved that problem and I am playing now, blown away by just how good this sim is even by modern standards.
My thanks for an amazing mod and to the modding community in general.
By the way I really like the suggestions for adding some AI visibility factors into the mod, that would be truly amazing. Dare we dream...
- certificate - 12.03.2009
Hmm, well I spent some time re-acquainting myself with this stuff tonight, the adjustments between attack behavior .16 and .17 were pretty minor, if you guys preferred the behavior of .16 I'll just roll it back to there, keeping the new landing light behavior. I appreciate all the kind words and most importantly the suggestions!
I'll re-read this thread before I go to bed, and try to come up with a gameplan.
Try to have patience fellas, it's been less than two months since I started this....
- certificate - 12.03.2009
chanklaus Wrote:Hi certificate,
first of all I'd like to thank you for this mod, and I'd like to express my deepest respect for your great work. This is a wonderful mod, I'm playing offline and there's a lot that bothers me with the original AI behaviour........
.....
Best greetings and wishes,
chanklaus
This is a great idea, the rub is in the implementation though. I could (relatively) easily make it so that other airplanes are visible or not visible through the current 3D vector code in the game, but the problem would be making it so that the AI is still aware of you after it has spotted you, then you move into one of it's blind zones. The way the AI is set up, when you're visible, you're visible, and making you not visible would mean that the AI would forget you ever existed if you moved into one of it's blind spots. There isn't a switch available that says "hey I spotted this guy, so I'll keep track of him now".
I don't know if I did a very good job of explaining that, but I appreciate the suggestion and I'll try to think of a workaround!
- certificate - 12.03.2009
ColaBen Wrote:Hi' There !
Having a lot of pleasure from 0.17 AI, a marked improvement ;@)) Can I ask if it is possible to tone down the behaviour of big planes (e.g. Me323) when under attack (by me). They maneuver like small A/C !!
Happy Landings
ColaBen
Yes, definitely possible, just need to find the time to do it
.
- certificate - 12.03.2009
Billfish Wrote:Well Thor;
I've been flying since 1.0 when the sim came out as Forgotten Battles literally the same week it hit the shelves in March of 2003.....ALL of my time online in coops flying daily wherein I see both numerous live pilots and AI mixed constantly. 4.02 AI was detuned as quite frankly so many players complained (now not getting kills and getting shot down) that Oleg rolled it back detuning them.
Not complaints about they do this wrong or that wrong...Yet complaints about them teamplaying too well, and it impossible to detect who was AI and who was live which some online players count on.
It's great to support this mod, I'm all for improved AI.......So why not consider what was in the version that folks raved on, and gleen from it what you like?
I don't want easy to defeat AI....I want AI as unpredictable as a noobie live player....More so I want the awesome teamwork that the 4.02AI showed.
WHat we all want...........right?
K2
I'm more than willing to entertain the idea of 4.02's AI, problem is I don't have a copy of IL2 4.02. If you do, and can get me the relevant files, I'd certainly have a look.
- nearmiss - 12.03.2009
I did several missions with the Mod 17 and it worked pretty well.
F4U1A against zeros. The odds were 4:1 against me. I flicked into Autopilot to let the AI go for it.
The F4U stunted like crazy and dodged a lot of bullets.
The strange thing is the F4U was running away like crazy and the zeros were everywhere.
Often the zero would be within shooting range and the F4 wouldn't shoot.
When the F4U had space to gain altitude and get some "E" he woulld persist at same altitude.
Actually the F4U outlasted all the zeros, they just left the scene. One lagger zero persisted on the tail of the F4U and eventually took him out. The starnge part was the F4U quit jinking and flew straight taking all the fire from the zero. When it was one on one the F4U just kept running and he could have probably turned or done a hammerhead or something. The F4U very power aircraft should have done very well against zero..
There is a way to really test the AI. Do missions are quick missions, record the mission. Make sure the player goes into autopilot, then turn on wingtip smoke. I just go to outside trailing view and use the mouse to push in an out to view the action. Then when I get all done I run the video. I can jump around from plane to plane and fly through every aircraft in the mission if I need to.
I usually either replay the video and tag behind the player or his wingman watching the action of the two from outside views. Sometimes, if the player gets taken out I replay and tag outside view the tail of the plane that nailed him.
Trying to fix the all seeing Ai, well I can tell you it hasn't been a biggy with th BOB II WOV users.
The most important thing is performance against the AI. Most of us just turn off the clouds and weather and fly daylight when we're getting into a furrball with AI. The AI have no advantage that way (visibility wise). Online against other human players it doesn't matter, because your enemy can't see anything you can't LOL
Oleg, has messed alot with the AI between releases. So, I would think getting the AI to perform in various air combat situations is difficult to program. It is true humans will usually make a limited number of choices when flying combat. Yet, to know what and when the human will do it.... probably best handled with some type of random action generator.
You'll find everyone is patient. You're tackling a job none of us thought could be done. We're happy as Skunks eating Peanut Butter.
- Guest - 12.03.2009
certificate Wrote:I'm more than willing to entertain the idea of 4.02's AI, problem is I don't have a copy of IL2 4.02. If you do, and can get me the relevant files, I'd certainly have a look.
cert, here's an extract from the readme for the 4.02m patch:
[color=yellow]Modifications and fixes
There is a large number of small modifications and fixes to the entire code of our simulation.
We accumulated users input and fixed lots of big and little things in order to polish our simulation even further. We sincerely thank all our users who were so helpful in the process!
- Added Fiat CR.42
- Mysticpuma - 12.03.2009
As no-one else has reported it, I am assuming it is only me, or something I am doing wrong, but I'll ask anyway.
I created and FMB with 20x B-25's, I then added two Bf-109's using insert plane, then made the number of planes 2, then chose one of them as the Player plane so I could fly it.
I assumed that this meant we were flying as the same wing, which has been what I have done in the past without problem.
After launching the mission (I didn't set an attack point), I was expecting the 109 on my wing to stay with me as I dived at the formation, but it didn't. It continued flying level as I dived and then attacked the B-25's about 20-seconds after me.
Re-starting the mission, I instructed the plan (tab key) to rejoin me, but again it just flew dead level and watched as I dived at the formation, again about 20-seconds later it attacked the B-25's.
I tried the same again, but used the "cover me" command, but the same happened again with the 109 attacking the B-25's later.
I'll start by saying I love the new AI routines as I no-longer have to follow the enemy planes in an ever decreasing altitude as they spiral on their way into the ground, but wonder if the key commands have been compromised by the AI, as I can't get a wingman to rejoin me?
I would also add that the B-25's did seem to behave a little 'fighter-like in their manoeuvres, but that is all.
Thanks for a great MOD, cheers, MP.
- chanklaus - 12.03.2009
Hi certificate,
I'm happy that you take my suggestions into consideration.
Quote:The way the AI is set up, when you're visible, you're visible, and making you not visible would mean that the AI would forget you ever existed if you moved into one of it's blind spots. There isn't a switch available that says "hey I spotted this guy, so I'll keep track of him now".
Couldn't that be solved through a list or hash of Booleans for all possible pairs of aircraft? When he spotted me the Bool is set to TRUE, which means that all the probability calculation is suspended (by setting visibility probabilities to 100%) until the distance between the planes is above a threshold (which means that they lost contact) and the Bool is re-set to FALSE.
That would mean I could sneak up to him, until I shoot him down or he sees me. If the latter we dog fight, and if none of us does the kill at a certain time point we loose contact, and then the whole procedure might start again.
Greetings
chanklaus!
- nearmiss - 12.03.2009
Just curious...
The landing pattern - is it changeable through AI.
Straight in landings with circling holding patterns would be great.
Couple things always bug me:
That broad sweeping loop landing pattern
The proper placement and altitude you SET for the pre-landing waypoint.
Straight end landings with the ability to change the turn direction for holding would be good.
This would speed up missions about 20% or more.
Also, when you 3 airbases like late war Henderson on Guadalcanal there is no way a consistent looping landing pattern makes any sense. How many times have you run into the landscape when you didn't setup your landing approach to a runway correctly (hilly terrain)
This may not even be an AI thing at all.
- rockyalexander - 12.03.2009
The primary issue with this mod is the pullout angle of jabos. Without the mod the pullout angle is about 45 degrees. With the mod enabled the angle decreases to around 30 degrees. As a result, even low hills become a huge danger, and fatalities from ground-pounding missions increase by 50-100%. Any idea when this can be fixed?