[RadPig94]

All the more reason why a fully loaded TU-4 could not be an atomic bomber like the B-29 SilverPlate.. At least not a long range one! Which is why the combo SAS version makes no real since IMHO

if anyone reallllly wants to fly a TU-4 there's a secret to doing that: pick B-29, go to countries and pick USSR and BOOM... a TU-4 :wink:

[Guest]

All the more reason why a fully loaded TU-4 could not be an atomic bomber like the B-29 SilverPlate.. At least not a long range one! Which is why the combo SAS version makes no real since IMHO

if anyone reallllly wants to fly a TU-4 there's a secret to doing that: pick B-29, go to countries and pick USSR and BOOM... a TU-4 :wink:

No not a TU-4, The Russians liked their Defensive guns a bit bigger...Hmm Maybe 20mm.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

All the more reason why a fully loaded TU-4 could not be an atomic bomber like the B-29 SilverPlate.. At least not a long range one! Which is why the combo SAS version makes no real since IMHO

if anyone reallllly wants to fly a TU-4 there's a secret to doing that: pick B-29, go to countries and pick USSR and BOOM... a TU-4 :wink:

Bingo!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

All the more reason why a fully loaded TU-4 could not be an atomic bomber like the B-29 SilverPlate.. At least not a long range one! Which is why the combo SAS version makes no real since IMHO

if anyone reallllly wants to fly a TU-4 there's a secret to doing that: pick B-29, go to countries and pick USSR and BOOM... a TU-4 :wink:

No not a TU-4, The Russians liked their Defensive guns a bit bigger...Hmm Maybe 20mm.

Well they may have like them bigger..

But in the case of the Tu-4 they could not have made them bigger and still been able to deliver an ABOMB long distance..

Why you ask?

Because the US had to remove all of the 'smaller' .50cals positions cept the rear guns to lighten the B29 enough to carry the ABOMB to target..

Considering the FACT that the Tu-4 was heavier due to thicker skin..

A Tu-4 would probally have had to remove ALL the guns to carry an ABOMB that distance..

Thus the SAS mod of a ATOMIC capable Tu-4 with fully loaded gun positions and heavier guns and heavier plane is nothing more than a dream plane like the Learch, Ta-183, etc.. (read the doodle on napkin it was scribbled on looks good, but it could never actully fly)

In that in real life such a configuration probally could not even get off the ground with an ABOMB let alone diliver it to a distant target.

[.041 Safety Wire]

AOA,

The weight of the MK1 Little Boy was 8900 lbs and the Fatman was about 10,000 lbs. I dont think the guns were removed so the aircraft could carry this load. The original Boeing built 29,s were not suppose to have all the remote gun turrets either they were added at the request of the AAC. The removal allowed the aircraft to acheive a greater speed for exiting the drop zone. Standard bomb load for 29 was about 20,000 lbs. Most all the Bell and Martin built 29s did not have the remotes as they would fly at such an altitude to put them out of range of the fighters and ground fire.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

AOA,
The weight of the MK1 Little Boy was 8900 lbs and the Fatman was about 10,000 lbs.

Well I was joking when I said I didn't think it could get off the ground, hence the -->

I dont think the guns were removed so the aircraft could carry this load.

They were..

As in carry this load that 'far' and that 'high'

The original Boeing built 29,s were not suppose to have all the remote gun turrets either they were added at the request of the AAC.

Interesting

The removal allowed the aircraft to acheive a greater speed for exiting the drop zone.

And altitude

Standard bomb load for 29 was about 20,000 lbs.

Granted but limits the range and high..

Lighter loads..

Longer distances and higher altitudes you can drop from..

Most all the Bell and Martin built 29s did not have the remotes as they would fly at such an altitude to put them out of range of the fighters and ground fire.

But not at full loads

[.041 Safety Wire]

Combat max for B-29 was a little over 36,000 ft bomb drop was from 32,000 ft. The aircraft could acheive this altitude even at max gross.

Combat range: 3,250 mi (2,820 nmi, 5,230 km) a little more than the distance from Tinian to Hiroshima.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Combat max for B-29 was a little over 36,000 ft bomb drop was from 32,000 ft. The aircraft could acheive this altitude even at max gross.
Combat range: 3,250 mi (2,820 nmi, 5,230 km) a little more than the distance from Tinian to Hiroshima.

At max gross?

As in max payload?

I find that hard to belive..

What reference/source are you refering to?

In that the rating of bombers, be it online or in some book, tend to talk about their max range/payload and max altitude all in the same breath or in some table..

Never stopping to point out that the two can not be obtained at the same time..

[.041 Safety Wire]

Maximum allowable gross weight. All up weight with fuel and payload. Another reason for the removal of the remote stations was it allowed them to incorporate another fuel bladder in aft bomb bay so they had a little more cushion to account for winds aloft. And of course they probably had to deal with some density altitude problems though I do not know what average temps are on the island. I was fortunate enough to spend time with most of the Enola Gay crew on several occasions and spoke quite a bit about this mission. Most of my reference comes from NASM as I worked there for 30 years. of which 13 were spent with the Enola Gay. You can find any number of different ceilings from 31,500 to 36,000 ft most likely as the maximum allowable gross weight was increased to over 140,000 lbs the ceiling was derated.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Maximum allowable gross weight. All up weight with fuel and payload. Another reason for the removal of the remote stations was it allowed them to incorporate another fuel bladder in aft bomb bay so they had a little more cushion to account for winds aloft. And of course they probably had to deal with some density altitude problems though I do not know what average temps are on the island. I was fortunate enough to spend time with most of the Enola Gay crew on several occasions and spoke quite a bit about this mission. Most of my reference comes from NASM as I worked there for 30 years. of which 13 were spent with the Enola Gay. You can find any number of different ceilings from 31,500 to 36,000 ft most likely as the maximum allowable gross weight was increased to over 140,000 lbs the ceiling was derated.

Very cool

Than you understand very what what I am alluding to..

That being the payload affects the top speed, total range, and max altitude (ceiling) that can be reached..

Put another way, less bombs more fuel, more distance..

And here is a quote that reflects that truth..

It was able to fly at 30,000 feet and to carry a 2000 lb bomb load 5,000 miles. However, on smaller distances, the B29 was capable of carrying sixteen 500lb bombs in its after bomb bay and another sixteen 500lb bombs in its forward bomb bay. [ref 1]

Note they point out that the distance will be affected by a heavier bomb load, in this example a 2,000lb vs 16,000lb (2x16x500lb) payload, The quote makes no mention of how the ceiling is affect but we know that it would be..

here is a example of the B-29 general stats..

Empty Weight: 7,0140lb
Max. Weight: 12,4000lb
Speed: 357mph
Ceiling: 31,857ft
Range: 3,250miles

As I pointed out 'stat's can be very misleading in that that they don't indicate if each value listed is a best case value or some average configuration value.
By best case I mean the max speed, range, and ceiling was obtained at the min weight, not max.

Combat range: 3,250 mi (2,820 nmi, 5,230 km) a little more than the distance from Tinian to Hiroshima.

Actually Tinian to Hiroshima was ~3,405 miles round trip.. [ref 2]

Which is more than the listed Combat Range of 3,250miles..

And goes back to my initial point as to why they lighted up the B-29 (removed guns, etc) to carry the 8900lb Little Boy and or 10,000lb Fatman payloads that far, that high, and that fast

ref 1: http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/b29.htm
ref 2: http://serv.peace.hiroshima-cu.ac.jp/En ... ne2302.pdf

[.041 Safety Wire]

The 9700-pound bomb was released over Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, at 9:15 am. The bomb fell at a speed of 700 miles per hour, or 1138 feet per second. Within a 1-km radius of the hypocenter, the thermal energy contained in that single moment's flash was intense enough to cause internal organs to evaporate, boiling off intestines in less than a fraction of a second. Birds ignited in mid air; telegraph poles, trees, clothing, thatched roofs, wooden buildings, household pets, and entire streetcars spontaneously combusted; steeled framed buildings liquefied; rubble and bone fused together in a single amorphous mass. Watches and clocks suddenly stopped, their hands permanently burned into their faces, forever recording the precise moment of detonation. Hundreds of fires sprang up simultaneously all across the city. In some cases, individuals were so completely incinerated that nothing remained but their shadows. More than 200 radioactive isotopes spewed out of the bomb's core and into the dust cloud. After the flash came the shockwave, ripping out from the hypocenter at 7200 miles per hour, 10,000 feet a second, producing a wall of high pressure that smashed through doors, windows, houses, offices, temples, hospitals, shops, stalls, restaurants, factories, buses, schools, animals, and people. The shockwave slammed through the city with an initial force of nearly 7 tons per square meter, destroying almost 60,000 buildings in its wake. It killed perhaps 80,000 people in those very first seconds. The plane returned to Tinian 12 hours and 13 minutes after take-off after covering a distance of 2960 miles. The USSR declared war on Japan 3 days later.

General characteristics

Crew: 11 (5 officers, 6 enlisted): (A/C)Airplane Commander, Pilot, flight engineer (a rated pilot),[28][29] bombardier, navigator, radio operator, radar operator, blister gunners (two), CFC upper gunner, and tail gunner
Length: 99 ft 0 in (30.18 m)
Wingspan: 141 ft 3 in (43.06 m)
Height: 29 ft 7 in (8.5 m)
Wing area: 1,736 sq ft (161.3 m²)
Empty weight: 74,500 lb (33,800 kg)
Loaded weight: 120,000 lb (54,000 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 133,500 lb (60,560 kg) ; 135,000 lb plus combat load (144,000 lb on record[14])
Powerplant: 4× Wright R-3350-23 and 23A turbosupercharged radial engines, 2,200 hp (1,640 kW) each
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0241
Drag area: 41.16 ft² (3.82 m²)
Aspect ratio: 11.50
Performance

Maximum speed: 357 mph (310 knots, 574 km/h)
Cruise speed: 220 mph (190 knots, 350 km/h)
Stall speed: 105 mph (91 knots, 170 km/h)
Combat range: 3,250 mi (2,820 nmi, 5,230 km)
Ferry range: 5,600 mi (4,900 nmi, 9,000 km, (record 5,839 mi, 5,074 nmi, 9,397 km[14]))
Service ceiling: 33,600 ft (10,200 m)
Rate of climb: 900 ft/min (4.6 m/s)
Wing loading: 69.12 lb/sqft (337 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.073 hp/lb (121 W/kg)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 16.8
Armament


Guns:

10× .50 in (12.7 mm) caliber Browning M2/ANs in remote controlled turrets
2 x .50 in and 1× 20 mm M2 cannon in tail position (the cannon was eventually removed as it proved unreliable in service )
B-29B-BW – All armament and sighting equipment removed except for tail position; initially 2 x .50 in M2/AN and 1× 20 mm M2 cannon, later 3 x 2 x .50 in M2/AN with APG-15 gun-laying radar fitted as standard.
Bombs: 20,000 lb (9,000 kg) standard loadout

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The 9700-pound bomb was released over Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, at 9:15 am. The bomb fell at a speed of 700 miles per hour, or 1138 feet per second. Within a 1-km radius of the hypocenter, the thermal energy contained in that single moment's flash was intense enough to cause internal organs to evaporate, boiling off intestines in less than a fraction of a second. Birds ignited in mid air; telegraph poles, trees, clothing, thatched roofs, wooden buildings, household pets, and entire streetcars spontaneously combusted; steeled framed buildings liquefied; rubble and bone fused together in a single amorphous mass. Watches and clocks suddenly stopped, their hands permanently burned into their faces, forever recording the precise moment of detonation. Hundreds of fires sprang up simultaneously all across the city. In some cases, individuals were so completely incinerated that nothing remained but their shadows. More than 200 radioactive isotopes spewed out of the bomb's core and into the dust cloud. After the flash came the shockwave, ripping out from the hypocenter at 7200 miles per hour, 10,000 feet a second, producing a wall of high pressure that smashed through doors, windows, houses, offices, temples, hospitals, shops, stalls, restaurants, factories, buses, schools, animals, and people. The shockwave slammed through the city with an initial force of nearly 7 tons per square meter, destroying almost 60,000 buildings in its wake. It killed perhaps 80,000 people in those very first seconds. The plane returned to Tinian 12 hours and 13 minutes after take-off after covering a distance of 2960 miles. The USSR declared war on Japan 3 days later.

General characteristics

Crew: 11 (5 officers, 6 enlisted): (A/C)Airplane Commander, Pilot, flight engineer (a rated pilot),[28][29] bombardier, navigator, radio operator, radar operator, blister gunners (two), CFC upper gunner, and tail gunner
Length: 99 ft 0 in (30.18 m)
Wingspan: 141 ft 3 in (43.06 m)
Height: 29 ft 7 in (8.5 m)
Wing area: 1,736 sq ft (161.3 m²)
Empty weight: 74,500 lb (33,800 kg)
Loaded weight: 120,000 lb (54,000 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 133,500 lb (60,560 kg) ; 135,000 lb plus combat load (144,000 lb on record[14])
Powerplant: 4× Wright R-3350-23 and 23A turbosupercharged radial engines, 2,200 hp (1,640 kW) each
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0241
Drag area: 41.16 ft² (3.82 m²)
Aspect ratio: 11.50
Performance

Maximum speed: 357 mph (310 knots, 574 km/h)
Cruise speed: 220 mph (190 knots, 350 km/h)
Stall speed: 105 mph (91 knots, 170 km/h)
Combat range: 3,250 mi (2,820 nmi, 5,230 km)
Ferry range: 5,600 mi (4,900 nmi, 9,000 km, (record 5,839 mi, 5,074 nmi, 9,397 km[14]))
Service ceiling: 33,600 ft (10,200 m)
Rate of climb: 900 ft/min (4.6 m/s)
Wing loading: 69.12 lb/sqft (337 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.073 hp/lb (121 W/kg)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 16.8
Armament


Guns:

10× .50 in (12.7 mm) caliber Browning M2/ANs in remote controlled turrets
2 x .50 in and 1× 20 mm M2 cannon in tail position (the cannon was eventually removed as it proved unreliable in service )
B-29B-BW – All armament and sighting equipment removed except for tail position; initially 2 x .50 in M2/AN and 1× 20 mm M2 cannon, later 3 x 2 x .50 in M2/AN with APG-15 gun-laying radar fitted as standard.
Bombs: 20,000 lb (9,000 kg) standard loadout

Key notes within the above un-referenced cut-in-paste that support what I have been saying are highighed orange

And should not be confused with (assumed to be) the configuration of the enoly gay (silver plate B-29) on August 6, 1945..

As for the 2960 distance listed..

I would like to know where the above un-referenced reference comes from

Until than Ill have to stick with the reference I provided, i.e.

http://serv.peace.hiroshima-cu.ac.jp/En ... ne2302.pdf

The distance from Tinian Island to Hirosima is about 2,740 kilometers. It took the B-29 bomber six hours and thirty minutes one way

Where 2,740km equals 1,703miles one way..

3,405 miles round trip..

155 miles further than the Combat Rating of 3,250miles

[Fireskull]

Whoa! Guys, this is far too much information in the last page or so.


This wondered off-topic.