[Faucon]

This is the way i'm using 109, and what I think about it (everybody is free to be or not agree with me). I'll explain the main rules I'm using.


How to know if you're a good 109 pilot?
Fly the G6 early (without Mk108). If you're rtb safe and get some kills, you're a good 109 pilot.

This is the 2 main ways to use a fighter in Il2:
_Only dogfighting, dont care a lot about the death.
_Only flying to survive, dont care about getting many kills. (

[Faucon]

Check list, in 1 vs 1:
_Turn-fight.
109 can turn, some variants can turn very very well. With the G2, you can turn without problems against Yaks, Lagg3, P40. It's harder against Spitfire, La5, P39, sometimes you out-turn them, sometimes it's the opposite, depend of the pilots. But we know why turn-fight is dangerous, even if you're better than your adversary (you still can be surprise by someone else).
=> Forget low speed fight, exept if you really need. But if you keep your speed over 350km/h it's ok (more easy to escape a danger if you already got the speed).
_Energy-fight, or vertical fight.
The 109 is built for this kind of fight. Vertical fight is energy fight, but you are closer with your enemy than in B&Z (I will explain a tactic and the end of the post).
=> The best tactic for 109.
_B&Z.
At high speed the 109 keep his energy like the Fw (if it's not a little better). The only problem is the maniability. Anticipate how your target will move, use flap combat position. Check your speed in long dive, 109 is not 190!
=> B&Z with 109, it's very safe, but hard to hit something.

Check list, many planes vs many planes:
Exept if you have team-mates (i'll speak only if your flying alone or without vocals comms), for any pilots, turn-fights and vertical-fights are dangerous. Not the same in B&Z, cause you have a lot of speed and if you check correctly your six, you can easily escape a danger. But we know that B&Z is not so effective (hard controls, hard to aim if the enemy see you coming).
So the main work have to be done with your eyes and your brain. See the fight, how many planes, friendly or not, their advantages, ... Then you'll can decide how to fight:
If your team is out-numbered, you can choose to survive by keeping your speed up, trying to surprise someone and checking your six to dont be surprise, but you'll have to run. Or you can choose to die with your friends. Whatever the situation, keep your speed up, find an easy target and fly to be in good position to shoot this target.
STILL remember you can be surprise, anywhere and anytime. This is one of the main rule.

About variants:
The best 109E is the E4: best maniability, lighter, best climb-rate.
109F: F4 is a little bit faster than F2, F2 is lighter than F4 (so quite better than F4 in maniability and climb-rate).
G2: Good speed, good maniability, good climb-rate: the easier and most dangerous 109.
G6: Heavy. Little bit slower than G2 (at low altitude, only few km/h, but at high altitude G6 have 30km/h less than G2).
G6/AS: Very fast (the faster 109, exept K4C3 at low altitude and K4 at high alt), great climb-rate but heavy in turn-fights.
G10 and G14: Fast (30km/h less than G6/AS and K4), great climb-rate and good turners.
K4B4: Very fast but heavy.
K4C3: Little bit lighter than B4 but slower at high altitude.

For dogfight tactics, I'm sorry but I just cant explain my own skill (even in french I have difficulties).
But I can tell a well-know tactic (this is a vertical-fight tactic and my favorit):
When my enemy is behind me, but too far to shoot me, if I have the energy, I slowly(

[IV/JG7_HG]

My fav is the F4 and the G6AS 1944. G2 is fast but the elevator is slow. 109 will beat almost any plane in its year except the LA7 and Spit 25 imo. You can outurn spits easily, 90% of pre 1944 spits will stall anyway in a 1 on 1 turn fight. Online, the spit pilots think they are superior, but that is due to overwhelming advantage of numbers. 1 on 1 in a real dogfight, 109 has the advantage, that is my experience!

[Griffon]

Not all BF's can turn with spits, and not all spits can turn with BF's. It depends what year / make they are.


a spitfire LF vb.1942 will out-turn any BF109 of that era at 300kmph+


The best advantage a BF109 has over a spit is speed. fly it as a FW; B&Z with minimal turning.

[Faucon]

Spitfire MkVb 1941 out turn 109E and F easily.
Spitfire MkVb 1942 out turn 109G2 but it's a little harder.
Spitfire MkIX out turn G6s and K4.
Spitfire MkIX and G10 G14 are the same. Really depend of the pilot.

Any Spitfire out-turn 109 in a long turn (exept G2 vs Spit MkIX). A 109 cant handle a dogfight is the Spitfire use only long turn and loopings. If Spit try to use barrel roll or cissors, 109 can follow (even F vs MkVb).

G2 is fast but the elevator is slow

G2 turn as good as a 109F.

I would say your experience is quite dangerous for you

fly it as a FW; B&Z with minimal turning.

And try to hit something with hard controls and a single gun... 109 and 190 have a little bit the same way of flying, but 109 dont have to be fly exacly like a Fw190. It's very safe, but you wont hit many things.

[={TTU}=Tomcat]

I fly the F-4 and G2 mostly(I prefer the F-4 caz of it's cocpit,and the G-2 when escorting caz it can take a external fuel tank) can you give me some advise on fighting an La-5 and a Spitfire,oh and the Cobra pls.? thx

[creamy]

taking LA requires you to never ever out manoveur because it will eventually out turn you and get on your tail always stay above them and dive and attack if you fail use the speed in your attack to climb the problem with LA pilots is they tend to lose a lot of speed because of there evasive manovers use this to your advantage

[terrorfleiger]

Faucon, that is a very good summary with a lot of very useful information. Thanks.

I'm no good at all in the 109 but if I were to put my 2 cents in I'd suggest either the E4 or F4 as an appropriate ride for anyone just starting out in the 109. The F2 is probably the most fun to fly but requires considerable skill in gunnery. The G2 seems to me to be the most capable and well balanced of all the 109s but is severely compromised by its very poor view to the rear. If anyone knows, I'd be interested to find out if this problem was corrected at the unit level. As improvisations are never encouraged by officialdom, I suspect it probably wasn't.

[Cuccos19]

P38: Probably the least dangerous fighter. 109 out-turn it at any speed (if the Lightning doesnt use air-brakes at high speed). For the speed, depend as usual of variants: G6 cant catch a P38J, G6/AS can catch P38L, and have same speed as P38L late. Climb-rate for both plane are the same, 109 eat the P38 at low speed.

I realized that you aren't aware of the Lightnings abilities. It is one of the best if not the best aircraft of WWII. It can out run, out climb, out turn almost everything (except some biplanes and early Japs like Ki-43 1st series and Ki-27). At slow speed (below 225km/h with flaps) it can outturn everything. At high speed its ailerons are very effective, the roll rate maybe the 2nd best after the Fw-190 (Focke Wulf 190 is the all time best in roll rate). The two conter rotating propellers elamintes the torque, so you don't have to worry about that. The aspect ratio of the wide wings makes it very forgiving aircraft. The stall speed is very low. I can climb with the Lightning far below 200km/h, in high angle stably. The fire power is adequate for take down any enemy fighters, or bombers. Some very few except the Axis powers didn't have heavy bombers (maybe the FW200 in small number and specialised roll and japanes Rita bomber, in prototype status only). So to bring down a Bf109, a FW190 or a Jap is not a problem. The 4 .50caliber mg have more ammo (4x500rounds) then the bloody awful P-51D Mustang for 6 guns (4x270rounds + 2x400rounds for inboard guns). And the "Mighty Mustang" stalls almost for little stick pull-back. (I hate the P-51).

With the 109 I never afraid off Mustangs or Thunderbolts. The Jugs fly like a bus, easy kills. The Mustangs can set into fire easily, just hit the engine (the low damage tolerance of the Merlin is the drawback of the Spitfires too, but fly nicely what can't be say about Mustangs). And finaly, Mustangs are not a good maneovering fighters. They are boom and zoom fighters, like most of the americans.

But I always in trouble when I try to shake a Lightning. It's stick on my 6' and won't let me go by easily. I'm sure the Lightning can lean on its wide wings without stalling, that's the secret of the Ligtning's gentle flight characteristics.

[Guest]

With the 109 I never afraid off Mustangs or Thunderbolts. The Jugs fly like a bus, easy kills. The Mustangs can set into fire easily, just the engine (the low damage tolerance of the Merlin is the drawback of the Spitfires too, but fly nicely what can't be say about Mustangs). And finaly, Mustangs are not a good maneovering fighters. They are boom and zoom fighters, like most of the americans.

But I always in trouble when I try to shake a Lightning. It's stick on my 6' and won't let me go by easily. I'm sure the Lightning can lean on its wide wings without stalling, that's the secret of the Ligtning's gentle flight characteristics.

Well,I realize that you are not aware of the Jug's abilities .It's a B&Z plane,keep it at or above 5000m,you'll be safe there.And if someone tries to follow you,just drag him to high altitude and kill him slowly :twisted: .I usually fly german planes but I respect the jug,it's extremely dangerous above 5000m.

[Cuccos19]

With the 109 I never afraid off Mustangs or Thunderbolts. The Jugs fly like a bus, easy kills. The Mustangs can set into fire easily, just the engine (the low damage tolerance of the Merlin is the drawback of the Spitfires too, but fly nicely what can't be say about Mustangs). And finaly, Mustangs are not a good maneovering fighters. They are boom and zoom fighters, like most of the americans.

But I always in trouble when I try to shake a Lightning. It's stick on my 6' and won't let me go by easily. I'm sure the Lightning can lean on its wide wings without stalling, that's the secret of the Ligtning's gentle flight characteristics.

Well,I realize that you are not aware of the Jug's abilities .It's a B&Z plane,keep it at or above 5000m,you'll be safe there.And if someone tries to follow you,just drag him to high altitude and kill him slowly :twisted: .I usually fly german planes but I respect the jug,it's extremely dangerous above 5000m.

Okay. Jugs are really Boom and Zoom fighters. They are extremely fast in dive, and can outdive all of its opponets, not only Bf-109s and all of the jap fighters (except maybe J2M Jacks, but I'm not shure in that) - but the mighty FW190 radial engine series (I don't know much about Doras). But I usually make a tight turn in 109 at the last last moment when the Jug try to cacth me. In most of case it works. After the dive Jug try to get some altitude. But Jugs climb is not an impressive thing. If it has energy from the dive, it can use that. But only for a short time. Than it will ends and the Jug must rely only on the powerful but very bulky engine. Since it's not a streamlined aircraft the energy from the dive-speed useing up quickly. And that's the time to catch him!

I think F4U Corsairs are much better in all around aspects. Except that F4U has mechanical supercharger, but P-47 Thunderbolt has turbosupercharger, which is much effective, and doesn't need any user settings. Like P-38s turbosuperchargers. Just read after that, how the P-39 Airacobras had ruined by the bureaucracy when turbosupercharger was deleted.

To reply to your "just drag him to high altitude and kill him slowly" I'm not a very patient man, unfortunatelly. I have bad tactics for B&Z fighters. I always force the maneuvering dogfight with very tight and hard turns. And not only in the Ki-43-I 1st series Oscars. It works nicely in Bf-109 (I love Fridrich or Fritz serie Messerschmit most - they are light, easy on hand, acrobatic, etc drawback the light armament, but shoot like Marseilles and it will work). For Spitfires it sure will work. But the Ligthning is a real miracle. This is the fighter, where I can allow myself to loose speed. I can get it back very quickly, only in a few second of dive, or simply level flight. Very forgiving aircraft, good aerobatics with stable flight together, which are very opposite characteristics.

[Guest]

After the dive Jug try to get some altitude. But Jugs climb is not an impressive thing. If it has energy from the dive, it can use that. But only for a short time. Than it will ends and the Jug must rely only on the powerful but very bulky engine. Since it's not a streamlined aircraft the energy from the dive-speed useing up quickly. And that's the time to catch him!

Actually,after the dive Jug gains more altitude than it had before dive.For example,you are cruising at 4000m and you spot an enemy at 1000m.You dive,put a few holes in him and climb...all the way up to 4500m.You gained 500m extra .D9 returns to your starting altitude.

To reply to your "just drag him to high altitude and kill him slowly" I'm not a very patient man, unfortunatelly. I have bad tactics for B&Z fighters. I always force the maneuvering dogfight with very tight and hard turns. And not only in the Ki-43-I 1st series Oscars. It works nicely in Bf-109 (I love Fridrich or Fritz serie Messerschmit most - they are light, easy on hand, acrobatic, etc drawback the light armament, but shoot like Marseilles and it will work). For Spitfires it sure will work. But the Ligthning is a real miracle. This is the fighter, where I can allow myself to loose speed. I can get it back very quickly, only in a few second of dive, or simply level flight. Very forgiving aircraft, good aerobatics with stable flight together, which are very opposite characteristics.

Well,that tactic is good if B&Z fighter allows himself to be dragged into maneuvering fight (which I don't ).If I can hit you,I will...if not,climb back up and try again.Highest scorer of all times said:"Dogfight is a waste of time"....and he got 352 kill's...Maneuvering fights usually mean a lot of aircraft in small area,and you don't last long there .My goal,besides scoring kills,is to survive sorties.

Don't get me wrong,I'm not saying that Lightning is a bad airplane.

[Cuccos19]

Don't get me wrong,I'm not saying that Lightning is a bad airplane.

I say Lightning is (one of) the best, because you can use it for everything and any way. I mean you can choose between tactics which is the suitable in the current situation. I can't outturn a Ki-43-I 1st serie Oscar but I can a Ki-61 Tony, or even a Zero! Of course, in that speed ranges, where the Zeros ailerons are heavy and it can't really use them so efficient. Lightnings main draw back the heavy elevator at high speed. But with dive breaks the problem was absolutely solved.

But considering that fact, that it is a 109 thread, I would like to ask for some tactics. In most of the cases I fly with full thorttle during the battle (I know that in Lightning I have the luxury not to use full throttle) :o . In 109s I usually do that. But over the 109G-6 late (G-6/AS, G-10, G-14 maybe, and K series) they have some different engines. I know that for Germany started hard times when the strategic bombing was begining. Their industry began to fall. For example the german bolt action rifle K98 Mauser are significantly worse from '44 because of the worse materials. My sport shooter friends always look after Mausers made before '44. They hadn't got any time to make quality. Steel heat treating, etc. So the aircraft engines were stornger in horsepower, but less durable. After 15-20 minutes of intensive battle I can feel - and hear, too! - that my engine is tired. Awfull! I personally don't affraid in F-2, F-4, G-2 and G-6 (I never fly the G-6 late because I'm Hungarian and G-6 have, but G-6 late haven't got basically generated hungarian skin :x ). In the real life G-6 late have Erla haube or what (lighter and better vison canopy) but have wooden tail structure which was heavier than the standard aluminium one. I don't realized that in the game. The difference between G-6 and G-6 late in flight characteristics. Back to their engines, they have the strength in time. I mean they don't get tired. Maybe the G-6 is a little bit heavier construction than its predecessors, but have 13mm heavy machine guns, and opcionally have 30mm Mk108 cannon if you want it (I prefer the 20mm MG151/20 because more than enough for fighters, and can be good for 4engined bomber, too, and have 2times more ammo). So what can I do in later 109s which were made during the "bombing season" :?: If I fly about 80-90% of power, they are too heavy to catch even a Yak-9, which is a very average fighter, IMHO. So I edited the "planesHuF.dat" file in the DGen library of the game, not to generate any higher subtype of 109 than G-6 (basic, not the late). I start the Hungarian campaign with F-2 (not F-4, because the F-2 have, F-4 haven't got Hungarian skin basically) and continue with G-6 till the end of the war. But in many-many air battles I cried and cry back the agility of my "Fr