[spud]

I was watching a show on the BoB, and an RAF pilot was talking about how helpless a Ju-87 was with only its "popgun" for defense. As we all know from il-2, a single flex gunner can be very very dangerous.

The typical problem from a mission builder standpoint is setting the AI levels. Set the bombers to veteran or ace, and they will tough out attacks and push on to the target, but they have snipers for gunners. Set them to rookie or average, and the gunners are less lethal, but particularly in the case of rookies, if you look at them funny they dump their bombs.

The problem is the the whole plane has one skill level.

This is not something we can easily mod on the AI level. So I got this idea...

If guns have a dispersion modeled, could we not make the defensive bomber guns have a much larger dispersion? Then you could set the plane AI higher so they are more capable bombers, but the guns, while aimed perfectly, will scatter rounds all over the place, at least at long ranges. Close in, the dispersion won't matter, and they will still drill you sone their aim will be good.

[VT-51_Razor]

Brilliant!! :wink:

[Guest]

Great Idea! But, is is going to hit problems with 'going against the rules?'

[Lo0n]

more likely to hit problems with human gunners not wanting to use a shotgun effect mg... afaik the dispersion would carry across whether human or ai controlled so sniper huiman gunners would suffer badly.

[6S.Maraz]

more likely to hit problems with human gunners not wanting to use a shotgun effect mg... afaik the dispersion would carry across whether human or ai controlled so sniper huiman gunners would suffer badly.

Actually these hand-held MGs had a huge dispersion... hitting anything was almost impossible. Turret mounted guns were then only really useful defensive weapons

Maraz

[Faucon]

The problem is: AIs and the player use the same weapon.

[tony-bron]

Much easy to limit AI gunner skill to level 0 or 1 with higher bomber skill....

[fabianfred]

it needs to be able to be in its own folder....such as ....HE111_guns... so that it can easily be disabled for some missions..or enabled for others

[spud]

Simple test. Set up a formation of bombers, and have players attack in coop. compare the player using guns to the AI, then compare to RL shoot downs. I think you'll find the players are rediculously accurate with the guns. Bottom line is that it's maybe 1000X easier to shoot down a plane with a flex gun or turret from the comfort of your aeron chair with a beer in one hand and a mouse in the other than it was in thick gloves, a leather jacket, all while freezing to death.

I'd far rather tune the guns to AI, and forget about player gunners, frankly, given the lack of realistic limitations on player gunners.

BTW, changing the AI to 0 or 1 is not a reasonable technique, as I pointed out in the first post. Low AI means the whole plane is low. It means they dump their bombs at the first hit, for example. The whole point was to decouple the gunners from the pilot (AI) skill.

tater

[Baco1170]

Spud from a Bombers perspective, Fighters also do ridiculose damage to bombers. In Il-2 an average pilot can down 2 to 3 bombers per sortie. Show me records of that happening at a wide scale.
As human bomber pilot the onlly chance you get for surviving IS the acurate guns you have, That non the less do not discoudrage much neither human nor IA fighter pilots.

When in a bomber if intercepted you are dead, period. Becouse ussually in Il-2 you have a formation of a docen bombers tops, instead of the 48 or so taht composed a squadron. thus making surviving in a bomber mission a lot harder. And you wan to take away our onlly advantage?

Still, I do not oposse the creation of this mod, for anyone to use as he/she sees fit. To each its own, But please do not nclude it in a defualt mod with other mods.

[spud]

No, I'd see this as primarily for campaigns, actually.

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

I saw the values for the effect of aircraft maneuvers on AI gunners. I tried changing the values, but got a memory error. For things like this I'm leaving them be for the moment as I'm not sure what is wrong (and exploring other areas instead).

[stansdds]

It should not be an issue of the intrinsic accuracy of the guns, but in the skill of the gunner. I think changing AI skill is a better route to pursue, but will be more difficult to achieve.

[spud]

It's very likely impossible.