[caldrail]

I don't watch a lot of television these days (too much IL2 I guess) but today I came across a program detailing political events at the close of Second World War. It focused primarily on Poland, and whilst the allies had agreed at the Yalta Conference about the fate of that nation, Stalin had little intention of honouring his part of the bargain.

Despite the grass roots comradeship Great Britain and Russia made uncomfortable allies. The Second World War had started over the question of Polish security and the Cold War began to rear its ugly head over Poland as well, as Stalin denied the Polish people self determination despite American pressure.and dramatically increased tension in post-war Europe.

Churchill had always warned against the possibility of Russian expansion across Europe and on the 22nd May 1945, asked his military planners to prepare Operation Unthinkable - The British attack on Soviet Russia. I'm not joking, and neither was Churchill.

In the opinion of one individual involved in planning this venture - it might take a very long time to win. Given the recent experience of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe units struggling with the climatic conditions and the vast demoralising open spaces of eastern Europe, one wonders what the British could actually do about it. The Americans may have spoken up for Poland but you can be sure they were less willing to extend the war against their former ally.

It is ironic of course that the Russian people were convinced (largely by offical propaganda) that the West were about to launch a full scale invasion of the Soviet Union for something like forty or fifty years. Were the Russian government aware of Operation Unthinkable via the communist sympathisers lurking in Whitehall? Or was it merely the legacy of Stalins paranoia?

Anyway, there is a historical scenario for 1946 fans. Can Britain do it? Operating over the long distances of eastern Europe? The harsh unforgiving climate? Maintaining a war footing into economic exhaustion? Fighting a war on a broad front with less resources than the German began theirs with? Can Britain save the world against the communist tide?

[HolyGrail]

To get even better understanding , you've got to see this documentary .
It's absolutely eye popping disaster !! hock:
You can click cancel to install any Japanese language pack , is not needed .
I am keeping this video now on my hard drive , it's just too exclusive !!

http://www.66stage.com/documentaries.php...1625614601

S! HG

[Guest]

I don't watch a lot of television these days (too much IL2 I guess) but today I came across a program detailing political events at the close of Second World War. It focused primarily on Poland, and whilst the allies had agreed at the Yalta Conference about the fate of that nation, Stalin had little intention of honouring his part of the bargain.

Despite the grass roots comradeship Great Britain and Russia made uncomfortable allies. The Second World War had started over the question of Polish security and the Cold War began to rear its ugly head over Poland as well, as Stalin denied the Polish people self determination despite American pressure.and dramatically increased tension in post-war Europe.

Churchill had always warned against the possibility of Russian expansion across Europe and on the 22nd May 1945, asked his military planners to prepare Operation Unthinkable - The British attack on Soviet Russia. I'm not joking, and neither was Churchill.

In the opinion of one individual involved in planning this venture - it might take a very long time to win. Given the recent experience of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe units struggling with the climatic conditions and the vast demoralising open spaces of eastern Europe, one wonders what the British could actually do about it. The Americans may have spoken up for Poland but you can be sure they were less willing to extend the war against their former ally.

It is ironic of course that the Russian people were convinced (largely by offical propaganda) that the West were about to launch a full scale invasion of the Soviet Union for something like forty or fifty years. Were the Russian government aware of Operation Unthinkable via the communist sympathisers lurking in Whitehall? Or was it merely the legacy of Stalins paranoia?

Anyway, there is a historical scenario for 1946 fans. Can Britain do it? Operating over the long distances of eastern Europe? The harsh unforgiving climate? Maintaining a war footing into economic exhaustion? Fighting a war on a broad front with less resources than the German began theirs with? Can Britain save the world against the communist tide?

Germany would have defeated the Soviet Union if the US wasn't supplying them. Or mixing in towards the end.

[March_Hare009]

Hi All,

One must understand, however, that Stalin, as crazy and paranoid as he was, had some legitimate concern about an invasion of the Soviet Union by the countries of Western Europe and the United States. Afterall, the Allies had invaded Russia once before already - after World War One during the Russian Civil War. And for that matter, the Russian people would have had good reason to fear an invasion by the West on the same account, official propaganda or no. (I, of course, don't mean this in anyway to excuse the terror visited on the Russian people by Jolly Joe the Farmer's Friend (aka Stalin).

As far as any speculation on Germany's ability to defeat the Soviets, wether they were being supplied by the West or not, with all due respect, is really just that - speculation. Not trying to pick a fight, just commenting on the last author's statement. Cheers! :wink:

[I/KG26_Oranje]

I don't watch a lot of television these days (too much IL2 I guess) but today I came across a program detailing political events at the close of Second World War. It focused primarily on Poland, and whilst the allies had agreed at the Yalta Conference about the fate of that nation, Stalin had little intention of honouring his part of the bargain.

Despite the grass roots comradeship Great Britain and Russia made uncomfortable allies. The Second World War had started over the question of Polish security and the Cold War began to rear its ugly head over Poland as well, as Stalin denied the Polish people self determination despite American pressure.and dramatically increased tension in post-war Europe.

Churchill had always warned against the possibility of Russian expansion across Europe and on the 22nd May 1945, asked his military planners to prepare Operation Unthinkable - The British attack on Soviet Russia. I'm not joking, and neither was Churchill.

In the opinion of one individual involved in planning this venture - it might take a very long time to win. Given the recent experience of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe units struggling with the climatic conditions and the vast demoralising open spaces of eastern Europe, one wonders what the British could actually do about it. The Americans may have spoken up for Poland but you can be sure they were less willing to extend the war against their former ally.

It is ironic of course that the Russian people were convinced (largely by offical propaganda) that the West were about to launch a full scale invasion of the Soviet Union for something like forty or fifty years. Were the Russian government aware of Operation Unthinkable via the communist sympathisers lurking in Whitehall? Or was it merely the legacy of Stalins paranoia?

Anyway, there is a historical scenario for 1946 fans. Can Britain do it? Operating over the long distances of eastern Europe? The harsh unforgiving climate? Maintaining a war footing into economic exhaustion? Fighting a war on a broad front with less resources than the German began theirs with? Can Britain save the world against the communist tide?

Germany would have defeated the Soviet Union if the US wasn't supplying them. Or mixing in towards the end.

1; In 1945/46 Russia was on full scale war condition and have learnd from 4 years of a very hard war vs germanie and Finland , on the start of barbarossa rusia was still in peace form.

2; Against Russia was the Technolegie of the Western allieds and the new sorce of man power in the west by the liberation of west europ , africa and azia, and on sea the royal navy and US navy where masters there , plus the east side of europ was not so happy wiht the russian libaration so its possible that the partizans of 1941/45 turnd against russia as the diht against Germanie.
Than germanie it self was a good sorce of many experianst exports for the war effort.

3; In favor of Rusia was the massive war factory`s and the new technolegie that came avalable after the ocupation of Eastgermanie and the knolige of western allied matrials and tactics.
Dont forget the massive natrual sorce`s the have in Russia , new bases in Finland , East-europ and Azia.

4; the RAF and USAAF are not able to start a tactical bomber campain vs Russia , becose the Ural was a bit to far out for the Heavy bombers and its escorts to slowdown or distroying the massive factory`s production of war materials.
The atomic bomb was not avalable anymore after Japan in a fast time table.
Britian was broke after the war.
And dont forget...... Europ and the US are tired after so many years of war , the Support was not there anymore.

Personel i think Stalin had more chance to win in a real atack.

So after those cople points its hard to tell , if England where able to start a atack on Russia , remamber the have done it in 1917 against the comunist to help the Tsaar and force lenin to give up.
We all know where that ends.

Now for the Il2 1946 fans its very hard to dublicate a atack on russia wiht this sim we are only able to do DF or small Bombing missions , not the compleet story of waht if.

S! I/KG26_Oranje

[P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole]

Guys, if this becomes a debate on what would have happened, the topic moves to spray and pray i'm afraid; any political or nationalistic comments see the thread locked. Please be careful, courteous and polite, as i can see this topic becoming a bit inflammatory.

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

It would be interesting to see the actual plans. Some kind of localised conflict fighting over portions of Europe might have been considered. A futile hope that war exhaustion and long supply lines could topple the Soviet Regime?

The alternatively plausible plan, strategic nuclear attacks against Russia, is even more frightening to contemplate. The Soviet Union would have been unable to retaliate effectively (no bomb until '49 historically) and might have been forced to negotiate or toppled regionally at least. However, it is unlikely that this would have happened quickly or completely. It is also questionable whether the process could have been stopped once started.

Fear of future retaliation when the Soviet Union did get equivalent weapons could lead to wholesale nuclear genocide (against a relatively helpless foe). hock:

It is a nice future we live in. I think we can thank sanity, reasonableness and public opinion (as well as humanity) for that.

[Eagle1_Division]

Humans... Right on the edge of being too aggresive to maintain civilization. There's no doubt that the Allies would attain naval supremecy, heavens knows what would've happened if the Sherman, Sherman fireflies, and Pershings had to take on the T-34, but the two seem preatty well met in aerial technology, if you havn't noticed Russian and Allied jets are almost identical in performance, though if I'm not mistaken I think the Russian jets are a little faster.

Perhaps one of the biggest challanges for the allies would be the sheer number of soldiers, and the Russian winter.

The biggest challange for the soviets would probably be total lack of naval support, though how important that is is questionable during the winter, and perhaps even the difficulty of countering the B-29, Japan had no ability to counter them at all, but how well would Russian Jets manage?

One thing important to note is that the Soviets where never really one of the Allies, they were Neutral, with the Allies. Also, finally the most important thing to note, is that the Allies would have overwhelming Naval Supremecy. You can never win a war, if you can't get to your enemies homeland, and the Soviets would've never been able to.

[CzechTexan]

Just some thoughts I've had about possible mission scenarios for the events that might have happened:

1. Soviet Navy was too weak to take on the British Navy. A Soviet seaborne invasion has no chance. The Isles are safe as long as the Soviets don't plan a massive airborne invasion protected by thousands of fighters. They would need bases in western Europe which would be possible to have.

2. The Soviet Army would have little problem with their former allies' armies. Their numerous armies not only greatly outnumbered US and GB in manpower but the huge numbers of tanks far out-matched them. The US and GB had nothing comparable to the JS-2 tank and the new JS-3. In 1945 the Red Army was a highly mobile machine which could have easily swamped western Europe.

3. US and GB have the advantage in airpower and bases in England. Good for defense vs. airborne invasion and to prevent Soviets from having airfields close to England. Heavy bombers could be used to bomb Soviet tank armies.
Soviet Air Force has the tactical advantage at lower altitude but US and GB have advantage at high altitudes and could bomb at will with little opposition...until the Soviets could design large numbers of (probably jet ) fighters to counter.

4. With the Soviets practically occupying all of Europe the war would turn into an air war of attrition. It would be a will of which powers could take the most punishment. The Red Army is good at "maskirovka" and being able to camouflage their equipment making high altitude bombing difficult and with control of western Europe the armies could be dispersed limiting the effectiveness of US/GB bombings.

5. How many bombers and aircrew could US/GB afford to lose? How many lives and equipment on the ground could the USSR afford to lose?

6. US has the atomic bomb to be used vs Soviet armies as a tactical nuclear weapon. How many bombs could they use? Would not have had too many. The bomb is THE factor for the outcome of this conflict. Even though the USSR could build one and have their own version of a B-29, it probably would be shot down easily.

7. This war is simply not worth it for either side. Stalin made a good choice not to fight his former allies. Both sides were already tired from a long war with losses.

***
with the above mentioned scenarios it would be easy to create missions portraying the air battles for this conflict.

[Lonestar]

I don't watch a lot of television these days (too much IL2 I guess) but today I came across a program detailing political events at the close of Second World War. It focused primarily on Poland, and whilst the allies had agreed at the Yalta Conference about the fate of that nation, Stalin had little intention of honouring his part of the bargain.

Despite the grass roots comradeship Great Britain and Russia made uncomfortable allies. The Second World War had started over the question of Polish security and the Cold War began to rear its ugly head over Poland as well, as Stalin denied the Polish people self determination despite American pressure.and dramatically increased tension in post-war Europe.

Churchill had always warned against the possibility of Russian expansion across Europe and on the 22nd May 1945, asked his military planners to prepare Operation Unthinkable - The British attack on Soviet Russia. I'm not joking, and neither was Churchill.

In the opinion of one individual involved in planning this venture - it might take a very long time to win. Given the recent experience of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe units struggling with the climatic conditions and the vast demoralising open spaces of eastern Europe, one wonders what the British could actually do about it. The Americans may have spoken up for Poland but you can be sure they were less willing to extend the war against their former ally.

It is ironic of course that the Russian people were convinced (largely by offical propaganda) that the West were about to launch a full scale invasion of the Soviet Union for something like forty or fifty years. Were the Russian government aware of Operation Unthinkable via the communist sympathisers lurking in Whitehall? Or was it merely the legacy of Stalins paranoia?

Anyway, there is a historical scenario for 1946 fans. Can Britain do it? Operating over the long distances of eastern Europe? The harsh unforgiving climate? Maintaining a war footing into economic exhaustion? Fighting a war on a broad front with less resources than the German began theirs with? Can Britain save the world against the communist tide?

Germany would have defeated the Soviet Union if the US wasn't supplying them. Or mixing in towards the end.

Ein Gl

[CzechTexan]

Germany would have defeated the Soviet Union if the US wasn't supplying them. Or mixing in towards the end.

I don't want to turn this into a debate but I'd like to point out that the USSR was more than capable of handling Germany on its own without US aid which was really a small percentage of the total USSR production. Plus, by the time any US aid got to USSR it was after the battle of Stalingrad when the tide had turned. The really only significant aid was in food but IF the US didn't supply food, then the USSR would have taken measures to make sure more food was grown in the unoccupied areas like Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan. By 1945 the industrial capability was unbelievably high.

I don't think people realize the enormous amounts of tanks and other equipment produced by the USSR alone. Even in 1942 production of tanks dwarfed Germanys.

For these reasons I believe the USSR was capable of giving the allies a tough time, for at least a while, IF there was ever a conflict between them.

[caldrail]

Interesting comments guys. Operation Unthinkable was in effect a repeat of World War Two but with the Soviet Union as the bad guy. Churchills planners clearly thought the plan was unlikely to succeed and indeed the bulk of opinion here says the same.

The important point is that the plan was offensive in nature. It wasn't forseen that Russia would actually attack the British Isles (air raids excepted). To make this plan workable as a campaign in IL2 it would make sense to find allies. The USA wasn't likely to take part. Henry Truman didn't have the same relationship with Churchill that Roosevelt did, and the US at that stage didn't see the Soviet Union as an enemy (although they would have done had the Soviets crossed the European border and attacked their own troops - but that's a different and more common scenario in what-if situations). America would have provided arms and supplies - at a cost. With the British Empire suffering economically as a result of the war, it was going to struggle anyway.

The scenario revolves around Russia being on the defensive. Typically, the Russian forces do not respond aggressively to be begin with. This isn't just something observed about large scale campaigns like Napoleons march on Moscow or the German Operation Barbarossa, but the same phenomenon was observed tactically. In ambush situations, Warsaw Pact troops tended to take cover whilst NATO forces were trained to counterattack. Therefore, largely out of suprise and the need to regroup, there would be a period (how short is up to you) when the Russians would withdraw and force the British to advance over long distances to no great advantage. Think of what happened in the Western Desert. The front swung back and forth because there was nothing to capture and because supply lines were over-extended. Russia of course has always taken advantage of its large area and climate.

I think the idea of simply flying from Britain or western Europe is a little limiting in scope. Personally, I would have Churchill seeking allies. The planners of Operation Unthinkable weren't stupid, even if the concept may have been, and the need to strike at the heart of Russia would require forward jumping off places. Two spring to mind. Finlamd, whose emnity with the Soviet Union was well in place having fought two wars and lost territory. Turkey is the other. Although neutral in WW2 (and despite German attempts to swing them to their side) Turkey remained amenable to Great Britain and in the latter half of the war sent all its air force pilots to Britain for training. Turkey and Russia were uncomfortable neighbours to begin with.

[caldrail]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

[Irish]

Link to Minestry of Defense documentation for UNTHINKABLE

Take a Gander at Appendix 1 as it deals with the use of Airpower

http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/

[Hairog]

I just ran across this old thread. Guess what? I've just completed the first mini campaign of a much larger mega campaign on this very subject.

Here is the storyline that is based on what the US Joint Chiefs of Staff actually thought was going to happen. They created a series of studies called the Pincher Series that thought about the unthinkable. They were afraid that by accident Stalin and the Western Democracies might be drawn into a conflict sometime between May 1946 and the 1950s and prepared plans for just such a calamity. They along with the vast majority of the American public thought it was inevitable. Very scary. Most didn't believe Old Joe would deliberately attack but some kind of incident would start WWIII just like WWI.

Anyway here is my alternate history scenario in the short form and you can start playing the campaign today of WWIII 1946. I believe you will like what you see. Download WWIII 1946 USAAF Pilot Campaign Chapter One here...

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name ... ls&id=3857

To sum it all up