[Storebror]

UP uses different FM's for some of the new MOD aircraft than what HSFX has, at least in UP 2.0. On that point, I guess we all can watch what the future brings.

Gryphon took the time to capture data for the UP modded FM's.
They are in IL-2 Compare format and can be found at http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/wopDownlo ... pack20.zip
IL-2 Compare itself can be found at e.g. http://war.by-airforce.com/downloads/il2c407m.rar
Original UP thread discussing the FM's is here: http://il2ultrapack.net46.net/index.php ... 097.0.html

I took this for a test and looked at the FW-190 datasets, both stock models and modified UP FM's.
The difference is unbelievable.
According to the data taken by Gryphon, one should be able to successfully engage a FW-190 A-4 1.42 using a B-29SP (despite maybe the roll rate, but the same tactics like for the Spit VB should do the trick).
All the other modified FW-190's show the same strange turning performance, while the stock FW's seem to be like they used to.

Take a look yourself:


I'm not quite sure whether Gryphon's performance data is correct (don't have time to test it atm), but if so, any discussion about those FM's realism is pointless.

Best regards - Mike

[Monguse]

The point is about all of us having the same FM. For instance, last night we were chilling with some friends and one guy said, hey, your 51 is smoking...

Like I said, we shall see what the future brings.

[8FS_Bulau]

Check the manifold on the 51D-25NA in HSFX and UP2, see the bias for yourself.

Go to stock, unmodded 4.09m and try to find 51D-25NA...you won't find it. The 25NA is NOT a STOCK plane, it is a MOD plane. You said that UP tampered with STOCK FM...they did not.

The new 51s also have a different dm than the stock 51s.

New 51s DMs are different...so what? You said that UP tampered with STOCK FM and DM...they did not.

It's casuistry to say that's not messing with stock dm's.

You guys can debate all you want about whether the FM and DM for NEW, MODDED aircraft are correct or not. All I'm commenting on here is the claim that UP has tampered with STOCK FM and DM. If you are arguing that making a new slot aircraft, and making a different FM or DM for it is somehow "tampering with the stock aircraft" which still has the stock FM and DM, well, what can I say?

[Storebror]

The point is about all of us having the same FM. For instance, last night we were chilling with some friends and one guy said, hey, your 51 is smoking...

Open Canopy / Mixture settings mixed... all of those nice flavors of different FM/DM/WM, yes.
I'd like to extend what you've said: All of us should have the same FM at the same time.
For instance if there are different Pony's FMs around, a server should run only one of them.
On the other hand, if there are different FMs available, IMHO all of them should remain available to the community to let the user / server admin choose which one to use. If discussions about pros and cons of different FMs for the same plane remain, then they would for specific servers, not for all of us in the community.

Best regards - Mike

[megalopsuche]

Check the manifold on the 51D-25NA in HSFX and UP2, see the bias for yourself.

Go to stock, unmodded 4.09m and try to find 51D-25NA...you won't find it. The 25NA is NOT a STOCK plane, it is a MOD plane. You said that UP tampered with STOCK FM...they did not.

The new 51s also have a different dm than the stock 51s.

New 51s DMs are different...so what? You said that UP tampered with STOCK FM and DM...they did not.

Provide me the justification for having a different dm for the modded 51D-25NA that only differs in the fuel/manifold pressure it uses from the stock 51Ds. The stock dm should have been retained because no one except Oleg and his team can claim to know why the stock values were set as they were, and I've never noticed the stock 51s to be particularly rugged aircraft...Oh, wait a second, my point is moot because UP2 nerfed the manifold pressure on the 25NA in addition to the dm.

P.S. Out of all the aircraft in Il-2, I've flown the Bf 109 more than any other, the P-51 only occasionally.

[Kwiatek]

UP uses different FM's for some of the new MOD aircraft than what HSFX has, at least in UP 2.0. On that point, I guess we all can watch what the future brings.

Gryphon took the time to capture data for the UP modded FM's.
They are in IL-2 Compare format and can be found at http://www.warbirdsofprey.org/wopDownlo ... pack20.zip
IL-2 Compare itself can be found at e.g. http://war.by-airforce.com/downloads/il2c407m.rar
Original UP thread discussing the FM's is here: http://il2ultrapack.net46.net/index.php ... 097.0.html

I took this for a test and looked at the FW-190 datasets, both stock models and modified UP FM's.
The difference is unbelievable.
According to the data taken by Gryphon, one should be able to successfully engage a FW-190 A-4 1.42 using a B-29SP (despite maybe the roll rate, but the same tactics like for the Spit VB should do the trick).
All the other modified FW-190's show the same strange turning performance, while the stock FW's seem to be like they used to.

Take a look yourself:


I'm not quite sure whether Gryphon's performance data is correct (don't have time to test it atm), but if so, any discussion about those FM's realism is pointless.

Best regards - Mike

So maby first before you screaming everywhere how bad and wrong is UP 2.0 and their team are so bad guys you would like to check these facts?
You should note that Gryphon has old version of soft which are making some errors in IL2 diagrams? You would be know these if you would check these facts manualy. Its really not such hard take these A-4 1.42 Ata and test its performance manualy?

The one is sure UP Team dont make dream FM's and wonderfull planes. We try to make it in historical accuracy based on avaliable original suorces first.
I repeat one more for these which are blind: UP TEAM DONT CHANGE FM/DM OF STOCK PLANES.

Yes we change some DM values for some engines thoughtnes data for NEW ADDED PLANES WITH NEW FM's for more logical and realistic values. Stock P-51s and also made by AAA have engine thoughtness value set for "350" - these same value which is use by radial engines in game e.x. like Fw 190A or P-47. We corrected only such obvious things. Do you think that P-51 engine has the same resistance like radial engines for P-47 or Fw 190 ? If so i really have no pointless to diccusion with you about anything.

I could say more the same engine used by stock Spitfire MK IX has only " 70" value. Moreover these DM corrections made in new ones planes ( i repeat for blinders NOT STOCK ONES) are not easy to detect in game but there are far more logical and accurate then stock ones .

UP create new standart planes which are not just copied sotck ones with only some diffrence in perforamcne ( like speed or climb) . We create some new standart planes wich we belive are much more close to their RL counterparts. We really said stop for new UFO planes - we have many of them in stock ones.


And here is true performance for UP 2.0 Fw 190 A-4 1.42 Ata ( made in Crimea Map).


A-4 1.42 Ata UP 2.0 vs A-4 Stock


[/img]

[Monguse]

Yes we change some DM values for some engines thoughtnes data for NEW ADDED PLANES WITH NEW FM's for more logical and realistic values. Stock P-51s and also made by AAA have engine thoughtness value set for "350" - these same value which is use by radial engines in game e.x. like Fw 190A or P-47. We corrected only such obvious things. Do you think that P-51 engine has the same resistance like radial engines for P-47 or Fw 190 ? If so i really have no pointless to diccusion with you about anything.

The stock game P51 FM engine [Toughness] for the 51 is 350. In UP it was changed it to 250. When we made the P51's we tried to keep the same values as the game, plain and simple.


Maybe you did not get the email I sent to Hades, Et Al. If you did not get a forwarded email maybe you and I should be working together so we can hammer out the differences and at the same time look at the software from broader picture (20k meters) before modifying anything. This is something we did to keep in synch with the sim as we have it.

Interested? PM me here.


One more thing, Infomod is only half the picture, we fly them manually and graph them. We don't rely just on infomod.

The current locker room talk of whos better can only be solved by cooperating. UP strong arming the change to the we (meaning Bury. Wolf, Monguse) is BS. Saying we changed them and we will talk later is a 'bait and switch' or 'pea and walnut shell game'

I do hope everyone reads this thread and the thread at UP and vote with their feet. We either work together or go the way of CF3, Janes and all other modded sims, just because someone thinks they are selling better FM's.


added - If we make something that is broken let us know and allow us to change it after conversations and testing. Not strong arm the change as was done. After all, we would help you out as well by conversing.


People, vote!

[fly_zo]

It's not just finding any kind of data on net... it is finding balance with game limitations ( high alt performance etc.) so it fits right with other planes .

... FM,DM,WM for stock planes should never been touched !

and FM,DM,WM of new slot planes shouldn't either .... it is someones work and it should be respected as such

at present state nothing is sure anymore ... with every new pack/version there can be class changes and what we are supposed to do , check each plane with every new version ?

Now anyone with connections to obtain certain app's (which is not that hard) can mess with FM,DM,WM

and we should trust in honest intentions of someone who just take someones work and tweak it ? I personal don't trust anyone who didn't make not one mod from the scratch .

.....that sort of alchemy should have never been allowed !

this is not unification ... this is chaos !

reg
Z

[Guest]

good, as the flight model has generated much controversy.
I have a suggestion.
BUTTONS file that is present in HSFX is incompatible with the UP 2.0, because the UP have more aircraft.
It would be possible to AAA team make a new file BUTTONS, so that the flight models of both are equal?


one more suggestion, in HSFX the FW-190 A2 and A3 have the option of the radiator position (closed, 2,4,6,8, open).
And in UP, it does not exist, and in true FW A2 and A3, also did not exist

then I think about the radiators FW's A2 and A3 could stay as it is in the BUTTONS of UP.

this can be done?

[Monguse]

Pablo that would be the idea. But I will not change any UP FM, it's not my style. If you want and I guess this applies to everyone here. Press the issue.

I will say this, I will not under any circumstances change anyones work without their explicit permission. So the idea of changing the buttons to be compatible with HSFX/UP/Donated Content from AAA is not for me to say, it is for the user base to repeat often.

If nothing happens, vote with your feet. The user base has the power not the modders, all we can do is try our best and respect each others work.

[Kwiatek]

It's not just finding any kind of data on net... it is finding balance with game limitations ( high alt performance etc.) so it fits right with other planes .

... FM,DM,WM for stock planes should never been touched !

and FM,DM,WM of new slot planes shouldn't either .... it is someones work and it should be respected as such

at present state nothing is sure anymore ... with every new pack/version there can be class changes and what we are supposed to do , checking each plane with every new version ?

Now anyone with connections to obtain certain app's (which is not that hard) can mess with FM,DM,WM

.....that sort of alchemy should have never been allowed !

this is not unification ... this is chaos !

reg
Z

We couldn't stop anybody for changing FM/DM if he got soft for it. Pandora's Box was open many time ago. As i remember correctly somwhere here.

Knowing these AAA products you can really name it balance. I remember you Tempest +11 and +13 lbs which reach 770 km/h at 7 km height. I remember your Fw 190 D-11 and D-13 which reach near 660 km/h at the deck, never overheat and fly like Kurt Tank's dream. I remember many of these site planes which are really far from even balance not mention of historical accuracy. I remember here Spitfire Mk1 which rules 109 at high alt - it outspeed it and outclimb it with easy.

I think that people who made such bad errors and things should't really touch FM at all.


I think that people who really care historical accuracy dont really need such new planes which makers would inept keep balance.

Now we have from such long time chance to make some thing like they should be done from beggining of these game. I really prefer to fly 4 good made planes then 100 shit ones.

So actually in UP 2.0 we have some more and more new planes from Western Front which really have some new standart and handled some different then stock or other ones. I hope we will get more and more such planes so we woudnt to use stock ones some time in future. Our goal is to get historical accuracy not balance. Oleg made balance. Your balance is Tempest flying 770 km/h or Me 410 flying near like Spitfire or Spitfire MK1 owns 109 at high alts with easy. Oleg M. balance is wonderfull LA planes and many others.

I really dont need such balance.

[fly_zo]

We could stop anybody for changing FM/DM if he got soft for it. Pandora's Box was open many time ago. As i remember correctly somwhere here.

Knowing these AAA products you can really name it balance. I remember you Tempest +11 and +13 lbs which reach 770 km/h at 7 km height. I remember your Fw 190 D-11 and D-13 which reach near 660 km/h at the deck, never overheat and fly like Kurt Tank's dream. I remember many of these site planes which are really far from even balance not mention of historical accuracy. I remember here Spitfire Mk1 which rules 109 at high alt - it outspeed it and outclimb it with easy.

I think that people who made such bad errors and things should't really touch FM at all.


I think that people who really care historical accuracy dont really need such new planes which makers would inept keep balance.

Now we have from such long time chance to make some thing like they should be done from beggining of these game. I really prefer to fly 4 good made planes then 100 shit ones.

So actually in UP 2.0 we have some more and more new planes from Western Front which really have some new standart and handled some different then stock or other ones. I hope we will get more and more such planes so we woudnt to use stock ones some time in future. Our goal is to get historical accuracy not balance. Oleg made balance. Your balance is Tempest flying 770 km/h or Me 410 flying near like Spitfire or Spitfire MK1 owns 109 at high alts with easy. Oleg M. balance is wonderfull LA planes and many others.

I really dont need such balance.

it is easy to take Hunin's work and make fun of it .... now when it's done and finished .... where have you been when it had to be build from scratch ?

Take some brand new slot plane , build FM for it from scratch ... and i'll listen !

for now it's like putting stencils on already finished skin ... not much glory/honor in that

Z

[megalopsuche]

Yes we change some DM values for some engines thoughtnes data for NEW ADDED PLANES WITH NEW FM's for more logical and realistic values. Stock P-51s and also made by AAA have engine thoughtness value set for "350" - these same value which is use by radial engines in game e.x. like Fw 190A or P-47. We corrected only such obvious things. Do you think that P-51 engine has the same resistance like radial engines for P-47 or Fw 190 ? If so i really have no pointless to diccusion with you about anything.

First, I would like to see you use standard argument instead of rhetoric (italicized above).

Second, do you know why the values were originally set as they were by Oleg and the rest of his team? I'm not simply asking for effect. It's a serious question.

Let me explain to you how it looks from my point of view:

Some clever folks hacked Il-2 and found that some values for different categories of engine damage were not logical. Without first-hand knowledge of how Oleg arrived at these values, these clever folks decide to change them and make them logical. In other words, I am skeptical because these changes rest on the assumption that Oleg was wrong without ever having received his input about them. If he came out and said, "On second thought, I screwed that up. Your changes are great," everything would be different.

[Monguse]

As I noted before those planes were done in the FM infancy or am I missing something here. Of course they needed work but at the time no one knew much right?

To keep harping on three or four old FM that needed fixing does not warrant anyone carte blanche to fix someone's work! What part of that don't we understand?

Hell even in maps I have pointed out things that need fixing and allow the map maker the opportunity to change it. If they allow me I'll do it and send it back so both people share in the learning. When I have a 3D problem I ask and people help and sometimes do so I can learn. THAT is called teamwork and helping your fellow friend.

It's also called manners.

Now, if we want to dispense with all the positioning I suggest we actually stop talking and start working together. For those that don't want to participate, they will eventually fade away.

Let me know what you want to do Kwiatek. I still have two ears and am willing to listen and make it happen.

Your call.

[Guest]

Pablo that would be the idea. But I will not change any UP FM, it's not my style. If you want and I guess this applies to everyone here. Press the issue.

I will say this, I will not under any circumstances change anyones work without their explicit permission. So the idea of changing the buttons to be compatible with HSFX/UP/Donated Content from AAA is not for me to say, it is for the user base to repeat often.

If nothing happens, vote with your feet. The user base has the power not the modders, all we can do is try our best and respect each others work.

dear Monguse

I did not refer to the AAA make "BUTTONS" for Ultrapack.

for example, the SAS, they launch a file BUTTONS each new plane that appears.
http://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,97.0.html


my idea is much simpler, the AAA make one BUTTONS for all aircraft available and ready.
servers will choose which package MODS, and that "flight model" they want