11.01.2010, 12:39
This reminds me of some Harry Turtledove books :?:
Confederate Air Force - Forgotten Countries
11.01.2010, 13:15
Good movie, look it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.S.A.:_Th ... of_America
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.S.A.:_Th ... of_America
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/
11.01.2010, 14:16
Hi, I thought Confederate Air Force was an organization collecting WW2 planes, am I mistaken?
I would disagree with P. G. T. Beauregard's flag (for the Army of Northern Virginia and Confederate Navy) - I think "Stars and Bars" would be a better option since it was used the longest from any Confederate flags.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_th...of_America
However, it would be strange to have CSA in the game (same with "Galactic Empire" or any rubbish like that.), what would they fly - balloons, maybe? :?
I would disagree with P. G. T. Beauregard's flag (for the Army of Northern Virginia and Confederate Navy) - I think "Stars and Bars" would be a better option since it was used the longest from any Confederate flags.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_th...of_America
However, it would be strange to have CSA in the game (same with "Galactic Empire" or any rubbish like that.), what would they fly - balloons, maybe? :?
11.01.2010, 14:21
Alemart_el_Redentor Wrote:Mmmhh, this confederate "country", is not the same that fought the US civil war in favour of slavery? :o
thats not at all what the war was about. and as far as that website.. :lol: anyways back on topic....the CAF as a what-if would be hard to do realistically....theres a loooong line of history that would have to be rewritten for that to even be remotely possible in the '40s-'50s era. itd be like having an air force for Caesar's legion....way past its time.
11.01.2010, 14:59
aviator is correct, the civil war was not at all about slavery. Lincoln used the issue as leverage after gettysberg (I think?) to inflict more of a strain on the southern economy, which was agriculture based and did depend on slaves in that aspect. If the civil war as we know it never happened and tensions simmered and brewed through the depression and into the rabid nationalism that existed shortly before WWII. In this setting, with military bases scattered all through the states and their hardware as well, would an imaginable 40's civil war be possible. Chances are, all this would have done is make it easy for germany and japan, in my opinion. These are my thoughts.
11.01.2010, 16:28
Wow, I am impressed at the interest this topic has brought upon our viewers and friends.
A very interesting scenario it is too, specially for creating skins.
Its always a bit of fun to re-write history to our own terms and happy glorious endings,
although the world we live in is a totally diferent one. But its great to imagine what could
have been.
A few years back I bought a Book called "Fatherland" by Robert Harris, after reading it ,
it got me thinking what it could have been like if Germany had won World War II. The book is very well written
and it was a world best-seller. They even made a movie about it with Rudger Hauer, although the
movie really bombed and was nothing compared to the great story in the book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)
There is also another great book and story in a book called "SS-GB " by Len Deighton, which will shock
you a bit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-GB
"Clash of Eagles" by Leo Rutman, is another very interesting story book. Sort of like a Pulp-fiction novel.
Nazi Germany launched a major invasion across the Atlantic, out of the United Kingdom which was conquered in the previous year. German forces under Erwin Rommel land in Quebec and sweep across New England to New York City. The rest of the United States remains unoccupied but perilously exposed to further attacks, and the Roosevelt Administration evacuates the endangered Washington, D.C. and moves westwards.
I almost forgot to mention... "The Man in the High Castle " by Philip K. Dick, this one is a great novel.
Some places on the internet offer these books for download for free.
DO a google search for them :wink:
A very interesting scenario it is too, specially for creating skins.
Its always a bit of fun to re-write history to our own terms and happy glorious endings,
although the world we live in is a totally diferent one. But its great to imagine what could
have been.
A few years back I bought a Book called "Fatherland" by Robert Harris, after reading it ,
it got me thinking what it could have been like if Germany had won World War II. The book is very well written
and it was a world best-seller. They even made a movie about it with Rudger Hauer, although the
movie really bombed and was nothing compared to the great story in the book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)
There is also another great book and story in a book called "SS-GB " by Len Deighton, which will shock
you a bit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-GB
"Clash of Eagles" by Leo Rutman, is another very interesting story book. Sort of like a Pulp-fiction novel.
Nazi Germany launched a major invasion across the Atlantic, out of the United Kingdom which was conquered in the previous year. German forces under Erwin Rommel land in Quebec and sweep across New England to New York City. The rest of the United States remains unoccupied but perilously exposed to further attacks, and the Roosevelt Administration evacuates the endangered Washington, D.C. and moves westwards.
I almost forgot to mention... "The Man in the High Castle " by Philip K. Dick, this one is a great novel.
Some places on the internet offer these books for download for free.
DO a google search for them :wink:
11.01.2010, 18:20
Wow, again with the politics and bashing of me...
Okay, allow me to explain my thinking that more or less ties all of this together...
During the American Civil War, the Confederate States of America desperately needed French and British support. To gain this support, they only waged a defensive war by refusing to invade Union land. Unfortunately, the planned alliance failed due to the slavery issue when Abraham Lincoln made the Civil War into a war on slavery. However, the defensive fight led by the South allowed them to win what became the War of Nothern Aggression. The Union troops just couldn't win against guerilla forces in Southern lands. During the 1870's, there were a series of skirmishes along the new border between the two American nations. Both the Confederacy and the Union gathered as much land as possible. Notably, the Confederacy took Cuba and lands in what used to be Mexico reaching to the Pacific. In the 1880's, both the Confederacy and the Union prosper being able to trade to a global market. Although the Confederacy stays out of the First Great War due to lingering resentment for the lack of French and British support during the War of Northern Aggression and the inability of the Congress to declare war without approval of all of the states, they use the war to prosper via their crops. The Union joins the war at the last minute giving the Allies a much needed surge of troops. Both American nations celebrate prosperity in the 1920's followed by the Stock Market Crash and the international depression. Confederate slaves, fueled by Marxist teachings and economic issues, rebel all throughout the Confederacy and force the Confederacy to drop its former racist institutions, lest the Confederacy fail. Due to the growing turmoil overseas, both American nations form a military alliance that helps to industralize the South and provide the North with much needed supplies. The Second Great War begins, but isolationism is still strong in America and both Countries. Alliances are formed with France and Britain involving a lend lease system. The Union is attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese and the United States of America joins the war. Although the Confederacy stays out of the fight, they start to build up a large national military for the first time since the War of Northern Aggression. Before that, only a relatively small force was maintained for national defense with most of the territorial gains being made through purchases, albeit shady ones premised upon threats of war and other low tactics. Aircraft factories for North American and Consolidated were allowed to be built in Texas under allowing that several aircraft went to the new Confederate Air Force which simply changed markings by using the special "flag and bar" roundel on just the port side as temporary wartime scheme. The Confederacy joined the war just in time for the invasion of France. The Confederacy joined the war in the Pacific late during the war and was quickly followed by the Soviet Union. The atomic bombs that had been developed by the Union were deployed against the Empire of Japan and the caved under pressure from this new weapon and the addition of two new opponents.
Okay, allow me to explain my thinking that more or less ties all of this together...
During the American Civil War, the Confederate States of America desperately needed French and British support. To gain this support, they only waged a defensive war by refusing to invade Union land. Unfortunately, the planned alliance failed due to the slavery issue when Abraham Lincoln made the Civil War into a war on slavery. However, the defensive fight led by the South allowed them to win what became the War of Nothern Aggression. The Union troops just couldn't win against guerilla forces in Southern lands. During the 1870's, there were a series of skirmishes along the new border between the two American nations. Both the Confederacy and the Union gathered as much land as possible. Notably, the Confederacy took Cuba and lands in what used to be Mexico reaching to the Pacific. In the 1880's, both the Confederacy and the Union prosper being able to trade to a global market. Although the Confederacy stays out of the First Great War due to lingering resentment for the lack of French and British support during the War of Northern Aggression and the inability of the Congress to declare war without approval of all of the states, they use the war to prosper via their crops. The Union joins the war at the last minute giving the Allies a much needed surge of troops. Both American nations celebrate prosperity in the 1920's followed by the Stock Market Crash and the international depression. Confederate slaves, fueled by Marxist teachings and economic issues, rebel all throughout the Confederacy and force the Confederacy to drop its former racist institutions, lest the Confederacy fail. Due to the growing turmoil overseas, both American nations form a military alliance that helps to industralize the South and provide the North with much needed supplies. The Second Great War begins, but isolationism is still strong in America and both Countries. Alliances are formed with France and Britain involving a lend lease system. The Union is attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese and the United States of America joins the war. Although the Confederacy stays out of the fight, they start to build up a large national military for the first time since the War of Northern Aggression. Before that, only a relatively small force was maintained for national defense with most of the territorial gains being made through purchases, albeit shady ones premised upon threats of war and other low tactics. Aircraft factories for North American and Consolidated were allowed to be built in Texas under allowing that several aircraft went to the new Confederate Air Force which simply changed markings by using the special "flag and bar" roundel on just the port side as temporary wartime scheme. The Confederacy joined the war just in time for the invasion of France. The Confederacy joined the war in the Pacific late during the war and was quickly followed by the Soviet Union. The atomic bombs that had been developed by the Union were deployed against the Empire of Japan and the caved under pressure from this new weapon and the addition of two new opponents.
11.01.2010, 19:58
Deac Wrote:Wow, again with the politics and bashing of me...
Okay, allow me to explain my thinking that more or less ties all of this together...
During the American Civil War, the Confederate States of America desperately needed French and British support. To gain this support, they only waged a defensive war by refusing to invade Union land. Unfortunately, the planned alliance failed due to the slavery issue when Abraham Lincoln made the Civil War into a war on slavery.
Are you saying that this is just your fantasy version of the Civil War like the rest? Awesome. That anyone can support as a fun what-if. I want my own version where the South successfully breaks away and then is engulfed in its own corruption, splintering into factions that are later either absorbed by Mexico or destroyed and reabsorbed piecemeal by the USA. Perhaps by 1939 there is still one hold-out dictatorship consisting of the states with the greatest slave populations barely clinging to power in the face of a US fueled insurgency of freed slaves and facing an invasion by an alliance of democratic nations outraged by the ever growing attroctices the CSA commits in its attempts to suppress the insurgency, particulary after Jefferson Davis's grandson and Grand Master of the CSA, Adolph Davis, institutes his "Final Solution" to the ever increasing ratio of enslaved blacks to white masters through a network of so-called "concentration plantations" that are in fact death camps. I propose the anti-confederate alliance be called the United Nations. Will need new skins for them, too. Please make it for me now.
11.01.2010, 20:45
No, allow me to simplfy everything for you... I would like to see the Confederacy added as a country for IL2 that pulls uses the history of the Confederate (Commemorative) Air Force to give a sense of historical basis. There are a million and one possible plausable historical ways for the Confederacy to make it into the sim as a country. That much should be obvious with all the different scenarios that everyone has posted here. Here's how I should of originally stated the post.
Let's add the Confederacy as a country for IL2, but since there are so many ideas, let's pull from the history "Confederate" organizations today. This will allow a baseline for the Confederacy that people can build into anything they want, hence the request for it to be on both Red and Blue sides. Here's how we should add it to make the baseline:
1. Pull from the history of the Confederate Air Force for the name of the air force of the Confederacy and the basic roundel scheme.
2. Pull from the Confederate States of America today and their flag, the Third National Flag, or the "Blood Stained Banner."
3. Pull from modern Confederate military awards from various organizations. The medal for the Military Order of the Stars and Bars as issued by the Sons of Confederate Veterans for the basic award. The Cross of Military Service from the United Daughters of the Confederacy for the second highest award due to its decent from the Southern Cross of Honor. The Confederate Medal of Honor due to its link to the Medal of Honor of the United States of America.
From there, the Confederacy could be made into anything from Turtledove's vision to mine or something in-between.
Let's add the Confederacy as a country for IL2, but since there are so many ideas, let's pull from the history "Confederate" organizations today. This will allow a baseline for the Confederacy that people can build into anything they want, hence the request for it to be on both Red and Blue sides. Here's how we should add it to make the baseline:
1. Pull from the history of the Confederate Air Force for the name of the air force of the Confederacy and the basic roundel scheme.
2. Pull from the Confederate States of America today and their flag, the Third National Flag, or the "Blood Stained Banner."
3. Pull from modern Confederate military awards from various organizations. The medal for the Military Order of the Stars and Bars as issued by the Sons of Confederate Veterans for the basic award. The Cross of Military Service from the United Daughters of the Confederacy for the second highest award due to its decent from the Southern Cross of Honor. The Confederate Medal of Honor due to its link to the Medal of Honor of the United States of America.
From there, the Confederacy could be made into anything from Turtledove's vision to mine or something in-between.
12.01.2010, 04:58
What's with the 1860's guys? That's history and aeroplanes weren't available then. We're talking about a fictional 'what-if' 1939-45 situation here, so the rationale doesn't really need much credibility. All you have to do is state that for economic issues (which existed in the 20's and 30's, lets be honest) the South has decided to secede again. Not a slavery issue, just a failure of politics and one that's gotten out of hand.
I've decided that I'll have my own version of the CSAAF use the following roundel. based on the battle flag, simple, and easily recognisable from the standard USAAF symbol.
![[Image: csaafroundel.jpg]](http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5504/csaafroundel.jpg)
(Caldrail leaps into the trench and awaits the bombardment...
)
I've decided that I'll have my own version of the CSAAF use the following roundel. based on the battle flag, simple, and easily recognisable from the standard USAAF symbol.
![[Image: csaafroundel.jpg]](http://img33.imageshack.us/i/csaafroundel.jpg/)
(Caldrail leaps into the trench and awaits the bombardment...
)
12.01.2010, 18:16
they can fly this
![[Image: il2fb2009-10-2223-59-31-76.jpg]](http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w95/drillsgt98th/il2fb2009-10-2223-59-31-76.jpg)
![[Image: il2fb2009-10-2223-59-04-38.jpg]](http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w95/drillsgt98th/il2fb2009-10-2223-59-04-38.jpg)
![[Image: il2fb2009-10-2223-59-10-15.jpg]](http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w95/drillsgt98th/il2fb2009-10-2223-59-10-15.jpg)
![[Image: il2fb2009-10-2223-59-15-89.jpg]](http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w95/drillsgt98th/il2fb2009-10-2223-59-15-89.jpg)
12.01.2010, 18:30
Great, but what about a unified Confederacy for the sim? That's the whole reason I suggested basing it, in part, off of the CAF.
12.01.2010, 19:59
ROLFMAO !!! That
12.01.2010, 20:19
Okay, I should have finished a rough version of the sig for the other member and I am working on yours. You delivered a tall order so I have to work on it more than I would like to and I've got real life to worry about which takes presedence over this. I'm sorry that this whole thing offends you, but I just thought it was a cool idea. It's obvious that I've toyed with the idea for a long time, but this is the farthest I've gotten.
12.01.2010, 20:30
Personally, I don
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