Is it realistic that the Avenger can turn with an A6M2? It seems unlikely to me, considering relative size & weight, but maybe I'm wrong.
Recently I've seen Avengers dogfighting Zekes in online servers (I'd never have considered even trying that) and they do turn about as quickly as the Zero. IL-2C data agrees with what I've seen, although there is a tiny bit of variation in the different Avenger versions.
If there is data to support Avengers turning like Zeros it would be good to see it. Avengers dogfighting Zeros might be fine for an arcade game, but, unless I'm very wrong about their relative turning ability, it makes a joke of realistic scenarios and servers.
Bombers by virtue have big wings. Big wings with no bomb loads translates into impressive maneuverability.
I can't imagine an Avenger out turning a Zero. On the other hand I can't imagne a Zero out diving a Wildcat either but they do in the game all the time. Dat ain't right.
I remember watching an episode of "Dogfights" on the History hannel and hearing the tale of this guy in an SBD that fought off and won against 2 or 3 Zekes. The Zekes had to use boom&Zoom tactics against the SBD cause he would turn against them on the horizontal.
That was the clip Taz posted the link to. However, an SBD isn't an Avenger - an SBD at max weight is almost exactly the same weight as an empty Avenger (10 000 lbs).
Hmm, big aircraft/big wing... maybe Mitsubishi would have been better off doubling the size of the wing and near trebling the empty weight of their Zero, then they could have had a fighter almost as fast, but with armour, 2 rear gunners, a bomb-bay AND still have had the excellent manoeuvrability prized by the Japanese. :wink: OTOH I believe the standard fighter evasion technique in the Vulcan if intercepted at 40 000 ft or more was to go into a spiral climb - the fighters of the day tended to stall out if they tried to follow. Then, the Vulcan had a massive wing and the fighters of the 60s had tiny wings and were built for uber straight-line speed. The Avenger wasn't a Vulcan and the Zero was certainly not designed for straight-line speed, so there isn't really any comparison.
Take a look at the huge elevator of the Avenger! The moving part of the horizontal stabilizer is one of the largest of any old aircrafts. I mean elevator takes a lot of area from the whole horizontal stabilizer. I'm not surprised about the impressive turn rate. And yes, it has impressive wing area.
SBD's are not TBM's though, the TBM was the heaviest single engine aircraft of WWII, roughly 75% heavier then the SBD. However, I have been reading up on Pilot's accounts of Avengers in action, for a campaign I have been working on, and all of them speak highly of its performance, one passage saying that he "handled it like a fighter" in maneuvers (this being a pilot who had flown F4F-3 fighters before midway). Another (perhaps more relevant) reference was of a pilot, who after dropping his torpedo, spotted a zero diving on him, managed to avoid it by "turning sharply."
While none of this gives us accurate flight characteristics, It does show we can't just rule out its present FM as being like an "arcade game". I would suppose however, that such tight maneuvers would not be possible continuously, due to the strength needed to handle a plane weighing over eight tons without boosted controls.
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This is a great FM discusstion, top marks to the ones involed in this
Topic so far, this is the way FM discusstion should be.
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Yes, great conversation.
I would love to see a semi-scientific measurement of the horizontal, high banking turn of the Avenger vs the Zero with the same fuel percentage.
There is no doubt in my mind that many aeroplanes have the ability to out-turn a fighter when the defender has little fuel from use or leaking.
Amount of fuel by weight is a huge factor in comparing the Flight Models of any two aircraft.
I had heard that the pilots favored the SBD to the Avenger too, and like you tater, I don't buy into it turning with an A6M2, those planes were built for the turning game, that's why they burned so quickly, no armor, no self seal tanks, heck most of the pilots didn't carry a chute...... all in the name of less weight (plus they had a thing about being captured) Oh by th way fireskull, yer coats on fire mate
Well, it's common knowledge that the Avenger FM is a simplified AI FM, never intended to be flown by live pilots. I know there have been some attempts to fix it somewhat in UP and HSFX, but it is still far from being a polished FM like you get with the stock flyables, or new slot planes.
Would that mean that the FM would still be the same, and act and maneuver the same regardless of who or what fly's it??
I don't know how the AI "pilots" work, but it seems that the AI are able to control these planes a lot better than any live pilot. I've followed AI in external view, and observed some very bizarre control movements, like full rudder in a gentle turn, yet the aircraft does not behave as it would if you did the same thing.
A good test to try would be to set up AI versus AI, Avenger versus A6M, and see how they fare.
