[P/O W. 'Moggy' Cattermole]

GENTS! If you must have your historical debate, keep it civil! No call to start calling each other names or implying rude names either!. This thread will be cleaned and if it continues, locked!

[Thee_oddball]

ACE and Storebror , the Germans could have produced the 183, they had the abilities and the know how...a claim that %99 of the world at that time could not make. The reality is that the war ended before any real progress could be made but in no way shape or form is it a possibility theory or reality that the people of outer Mongolia (given till april 46) could have produced the the 183...and i really don't hope you ask me why

now what i originally said was

pointless fight ,the mig9 and yak15 did not make there first flight until april 1946 and by that time the Ta183 would have been in production (as close it came to becoming a reality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IAe_33_Pulqui_II) the 262 is speed and guns not dog fighting

the original author was matching a plane that had not been created (mig9/Yak15) yet to a plane that was no longer around (me262) and was not a dog fighter either. So i "implied" that had the war continued that there was a good chance that the match up would be 183 vs ? given the current direction that the Germans were going in by the end of the war.

S!

[snowleopard]

We have to remember that US President Truman have very tough decision which to go ahead invasion or A-bomb until news of USSR start invade Japan cause made him go ahead with A-bomb dropping. USA and Britain may not want see USSR grab bigger land even whole of country of German if European war still go on. To get many advanced Jet fighters was delay too much because of stupid leader Adolf and Herman see link from Wiki. I am sure USA don't like to a-bomb bombing too often. Massed attack of simple and mass building of Il-2 and T-34 can easy overrun enemies of WWII if still go on anyway. In my view, which best warplane even much early is Il-2 I mean early single seat model with lot of rockets much better than other warplanes in world in offensive weapons even better than jet fighter. It is so cheap to build Il-2 with non-strategic metal and easy to train pilot to fly it than alllied/axis warplanes. Hey, I am very American and I prefer use tough P-47/Corsair in ground attack roles but I knew it is so expensive to replace lost plane and pilot as same for Me-262 and it's pilot.

"The Me 262 was already being developed as Projekt P.1065 before the start of World War II. Plans were first drawn up in April 1939, and the original design was very similar to the plane that eventually entered service. The progression of the original design into service was delayed greatly by technical issues involving the new jet engines. Funding for the jet program was also initially lacking as many high-ranking officials thought the war could easily be won with conventional aircraft. Among those was Hermann G

[ACE-OF-ACES]

ACE and Storebror , the Germans could have produced the 183, they had the abilities and the know how...a claim that %99 of the world at that time could not make. The reality is that the war ended before any real progress could be made but in no way shape or form is it a possibility theory or reality that the people of outer Mongolia (given till april 46) could have produced the the 183...

Disagree 100%

and i really don't hope you ask me why

Why?

[Storebror]

ACE and Storebror , the Germans could have produced the 183, they had the abilities and the know how

Well...
1945 is a little back in the past and today we know a few things Germans didn't know that time and we can sit back and take a little more time to think things over.
Lets enlist the requirements for the 183 to become a success story:
1.) If the Russians would have stopped some 100kms east of Berlin and
2.) If the US+British+Wohever else would have stopped some 100kms west of the Rhine and
3.) If the US would have denied themselves from dropping A-Bombs on Germany, Germans would have had time to continue the war.
4.) If someone would have been kind enough to provide fuel, steel and pilots to the Germans, they would have had the neccessary resources to let their dreams fly.
5.) (Let's become more specific to the 183) If Focke-Wulf would have sorted out the issues of loosing the 183's tail, it could have had landings too.
6.) If Focke-Wulf would have finally agreed to one of the lots of designs (the 3 known possibilities already differ in ways from each other), they would have had something to continue to work on.
7.) If Heinkel would have finally sorted out the series of issues to the highly difficult construction of the diagonal compressor of the HeS 011 (Mr. Schelp's child - one of the set of difficulties was that this was a work put together from two Teams, M

[ACE-OF-ACES]

[quote="Thee_oddball"]ACE and Storebror , the Germans could have produced the 183, they had the abilities and the know how

Well...
1945 is a little back in the past and today we know a few things Germans didn't know that time and we can sit back and take a little more time to think things over.
Lets enlist the requirements for the 183 to become a success story:
1.) If the Russians would have stopped some 100kms east of Berlin and
2.) If the US+British+Wohever else would have stopped some 100kms west of the Rhine and
3.) If the US would have denied themselves from dropping A-Bombs on Germany, Germans would have had time to continue the war.
4.) If someone would have been kind enough to provide fuel, steel and pilots to the Germans, they would have had the neccessary resources to let their dreams fly.
5.) (Let's become more specific to the 183) If Focke-Wulf would have sorted out the issues of loosing the 183's tail, it could have had landings too.
6.) If Focke-Wulf would have finally agreed to one of the lots of designs (the 3 known possibilities already differ in ways from each other), they would have had something to continue to work on.
7.) If Heinkel would have finally sorted out the series of issues to the highly difficult construction of the diagonal compressor of the HeS 011 (Mr. Schelp's child - one of the set of difficulties was that this was a work put together from two Teams, M

[RedChico]

[quote="Thee_oddball"]ACE and Storebror , the Germans could have produced the 183, they had the abilities and the know how

Well...
1945 is a little back in the past and today we know a few things Germans didn't know that time and we can sit back and take a little more time to think things over.
Lets enlist the requirements for the 183 to become a success story:
1.) If the Russians would have stopped some 100kms east of Berlin and
2.) If the US+British+Wohever else would have stopped some 100kms west of the Rhine and
3.) If the US would have denied themselves from dropping A-Bombs on Germany, Germans would have had time to continue the war.
4.) If someone would have been kind enough to provide fuel, steel and pilots to the Germans, they would have had the neccessary resources to let their dreams fly.
5.) (Let's become more specific to the 183) If Focke-Wulf would have sorted out the issues of loosing the 183's tail, it could have had landings too.
6.) If Focke-Wulf would have finally agreed to one of the lots of designs (the 3 known possibilities already differ in ways from each other), they would have had something to continue to work on.
7.) If Heinkel would have finally sorted out the series of issues to the highly difficult construction of the diagonal compressor of the HeS 011 (Mr. Schelp's child - one of the set of difficulties was that this was a work put together from two Teams, M

[Thee_oddball]

[quote="ACE-OF-ACES"][quote="Thee_oddball"]ACE and Storebror , the Germans could have produced the 183, they had the abilities and the know how...a claim that %99 of the world at that time could not make. The reality is that the war ended before any real progress could be made but in no way shape or form is it a possibility theory or reality that the people of outer Mongolia (given till april 46) could have produced the the 183...[/quote]
Disagree 100%

[quote="Thee_oddball"]
and i really don't hope you ask me why [/quote]
Why?[/quote]

Disagree? perhaps I am mistaken and the rest of the world could produce such a plane...I will see if i can find how far along Brazil,Argentina ,spain,France,....etc were in there development of a swept wing jet fighter in 1945...and the me262,me163 and arodo234 should be proof to you of there ability to produce advanced designs and the answer to the second part is that it is to cold there...resin wouldn't cure


[quote="Storebror"]
Well...
1945 is a little back in the past and today we know a few things Germans didn't know that time and we can sit back and take a little more time to think things over.
Lets enlist the requirements for the 183 to become a success story:
1.) If the Russians would have stopped some 100kms east of Berlin and
2.) If the US+British+Wohever else would have stopped some 100kms west of the Rhine and
3.) If the US would have denied themselves from dropping A-Bombs on Germany, Germans would have had time to continue the war.
4.) If someone would have been kind enough to provide fuel, steel and pilots to the Germans, they would have had the neccessary resources to let their dreams fly.
5.) (Let's become more specific to the 183) If Focke-Wulf would have sorted out the issues of loosing the 183's tail, it could have had landings too.
6.) If Focke-Wulf would have finally agreed to one of the lots of designs (the 3 known possibilities already differ in ways from each other), they would have had something to continue to work on.
7.) If Heinkel would have finally sorted out the series of issues to the highly difficult construction of the diagonal compressor of the HeS 011 (Mr. Schelp's child - one of the set of difficulties was that this was a work put together from two Teams, M

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Disagree? perhaps I am mistaken and the rest of the world could produce such a plane...

Agreed

You 'are' mistaken

[Thee_oddball]

Disagree? perhaps I am mistaken and the rest of the world could produce such a plane...

Agreed

You 'are' mistaken

list the ones (in early 1945)that had the engines, factory's and engineers please...save me the search

p.s dont forget we are talking about advanced swept wing design...you the know..the one that the USA and Russia did not have till 47

[ACE-OF-ACES]

list the ones (in early 1945)that had the engines, factory's and engineers please...save me the search

p.s dont forget we are talking about advanced swept wing design...you the know..the one that the USA and Russia did not have till 47

So what part of me saying

Berlin would be glowing at night due to ABOMBS

Long before the first Ta183 ever took flight are you still strugling with?

[Guest]

First ABOMB would be dropped....after that I think that Germans would collect every last drop of diesel fuel they can find...so next time B29's came,they will be met with a couple of hundred jet fighters (Me262,He162).Since these jets were mostly immune to bomber's fighter escorts,situation would be similar to Schweinfurt raid in 1943.Since most of B29's were at the Pacific (where they made ~300 airplane raids),how much of them could be used in Europe?100 in a raid?
That means they will be outnumbered by jets.....and that also means that all of them could be shot down.
So,yes,one or two bombs would be dropped...after that no more B29's in Europe...and at 600000$ per unit,how much could USA produce?

[Murph]

Germany never had a couple of hundred jets in operation at one time. The number was was more likely in the dozens, due to constant engine breakdowns and wearout, as well as lack of spare parts, not to mention constantly getting strafed on the ground by USAAF fighters. Due to constant cutbacks in training programs during the war they also lacked pilots who were well enough trained to fly them.
By the spring of 1945, the number of "experten" pilots who were not dead, too badly wounded to fly, otherwise injured from having been repeatedly shot down, grounded by lack of fuel or for other reasons was quite small. There were many occasions where the Luftwaffe was unable to put up ANY fighter opposition to bombing raids. Some bomber pilots such as George McGovern, flew entire tours without ever seeing a German fighter.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Germany never had a couple of hundred jets in operation at one time. The number was was more likely in the dozens, due to constant engine breakdowns and wearout, as well as lack of spare parts, not to mention constantly getting strafed on the ground by USAAF fighters. Due to constant cutbacks in training programs during the war they also lacked pilots who were well enough trained to fly them.
By the spring of 1945, the number of "experten" pilots who were not dead, too badly wounded to fly, otherwise injured from having been repeatedly shot down, grounded by lack of fuel or for other reasons was quite small. There were many occasions where the Luftwaffe was unable to put up ANY fighter opposition to bombing raids. Some bomber pilots such as George McGovern, flew entire tours without ever seeing a German fighter.

+1

[Guest]

1200+ Me262's and ~170 He162's were produced...earlier Galland managed to collect enough gasoline to put ~2000 fighters in the air at the same time (but then Goering screwed him and took that fuel for Bodenplatte operation).For this occasion they would get enough diesel for at least 100 jets.Would they be able to put together 100 pilots from remaining squadrons?