[Beowolff]

Beowolff -- Read my post again and you might realise that it is correct. Resorting to personal abuse does not advance your argument.

Ice Eagles initial posts speculated that the MIG21 project was dead and subsequent posts included anti-SAS rhetoric. My response, pointing out that the MIG project was still progressing and questioning whether it was right to post anti-SAS rhetoric was therefore entirely on-topic.

For info, I am neither blind nor unable to read.

Ashe

Deutschmark -- Thanks for allowing me to air my comments. Rest assured, if I saw gratuitous anti-AAS rhetoric on SAS then I would comment there in a similar manner, but it is the case that over the last few months I have not seen any.

Ashe

oh I see what you're saying...ie that there was no anti-AAS rhetoric (completely ignoring the anti-FM rhetoric that was/is over at the SAS) so therefore making it sound as if the SAS ...just don't DO those sort of things. lol. :lol:

and that's just another dodge. you see both the AAS and FM work together as hand in glove, so many of the slights which appear to be only directed at FM are also quite literally (and intentionally) 'also' aimed at AAS, since so much of our work is these days entwined. so to slight one, is pretty much slighting 'both' sites at the same time.

as to the 'then I would comment in a similar manner' comment my question there is if that is so, then 'why' (over the last few months) did you not speak out/comment when 'YOU CLEARLY SAW' DM's 3D model (and my importation/classwork and FM work) being literally 'stolen' by the SAS and when DM simply and justifiably asked them to remove it he was viciously attacked, talked down to...then BANNED?

:-?

if 'anything' SHOULD have spurred you into commenting 'in a similar manner' I would have thought 'that' would surely do it. :-?

okay to be fair i'll give you that you 'might' not have agreed with the powers that be over there when that happened (I don't know that but i'm just saying...) but sure as hell 'you KNEW' better than to speak up about it over there. correct?

which makes what you said moot and what DM said quite correct.

and i'm not resorting to personal attack on you or anybody else. you see here, as at FM... speaking the truth is 'not' considered a 'personal' attack. only at the SAS can one tell the utter truth and then be SLAMMED by it under the alias of a 'supposed' personal attack. you see if a person eats rabbit and I 'say' he eats rabbit then no matter how much that person may not LIKE me saying it...it's still the truth. ---not a personal attack. as is supposed over THERE so they can have an excuse to do whatever they like to people they don't like or agree with.

it all boils down to simply that despite the harsh truth...many people will FIND a way to take up for and/or defend people or sites that do bad things regardless of those bad things and regardless of how visible those bad things are. that's unfortunate but it seems to be a human trademark/condition and of course we've seen it all down thru history...most especially the last 'world war.'

I guess it's just 'so much' easier to go with the flow than to 'stand up and be counted' and say..."hey, that's not right!"

[asheshouse]

There was a lot of opinion and conjecture in that last post, so I edited all of that out and am left with this.

oh I see what you're saying...ie that there was no anti-AAS rhetoric

Since the Huey episode, which was many months ago now, I have not seen any rhetoric, either towards AAS or FM.

I must say I find the comparison between this dispute and the second world war a bit extreme and offensive.

it all boils down to simply that despite the harsh truth...many people will FIND a way to take up for and/or defend people or sites that do bad things regardless of those bad things and regardless of how visible those bad things are. that's unfortunate but it seems to be a human trademark/condition and of course we've seen it all down thru history...most especially the last 'world war.'

:lol:

As for the small number of alleged stolen mods you have identified -- all of the contributors appear to be properly credited, so how are they stolen? As far as I am aware none of these have been exclusively FM projects, but I'm sure you will correct me if I am wrong.

My main point remains that I can see no benefit in the continued antagonism between sites with a common interest.

Ashe

[Beowolff]

There was a lot of opinion and conjecture in that last post, so I edited all of that out and am left with this.

it all boils down to simply that despite the harsh truth...many people will FIND a way to take up for and/or defend people or sites that do bad things regardless of those bad things and regardless of how visible those bad things are. that's unfortunate but it seems to be a human trademark/condition and of course we've seen it all down thru history...most especially the last 'world war.'

:lol:

As for the small number of alleged stolen mods you have identified -- all of the contributors appear to be properly credited, so how are they stolen? As far as I am aware none of these have been exclusively FM projects, but I'm sure you will correct me if I am wrong.

[/b]



Ashe

[Fireskull]

It is very obvious that SAS and captive followers hack, steal, take dominion without credit, and later remove all posts and threads which bring them to light. It has happened for years and continues thru recent times. They will leave a stolen artwork thread in place for quite a while, even after complaints about it, then later deny that anything bad was posted at SAS. Uncredited works is a weekly thing there.

Expressing truth about SAS member offenses is indeed claimed to be personal attacks according to SAS leadership, as Beowolff reminds us here.


Clinton

[cammoammo]

From what I have read the term AAS is banned there. So are the names Beowulf and Deutschmark. Every link to our site is banned. Huey episode was all bogus. Admins there are @-holes from what I have seen. Any peace talks between us and them will get deleted and will get you banned or severely punished. That's a lot of evidence of anti AAS rhetoric to me. Yall probably know more on this issue than me, I'm just putting out the simple facts that I know.

"My main point remains that I can see no benefit in the continued antagonism between sites with a common interest."
If you think what we say about them here is bad and unjust why don't you try and speak your mind over there, just look what happened to the last guy who tried it.

Ps: Most people who got banned there are users here or on FM site. It doesn't matter how hard it is to find or how long ago it happened, It is still true what they did and continue to do. It's very wrong what they do over there and it doesn't take much to figure that out.

camm ;dd

[Texx]

You might need to click on the photo to enlarge.


Everyone knows who made the L-159N...a Freemodding fellow.
Have a look;
viewtopic.php?f=189&t=33348

[asheshouse]

Actually the L-139N was a further development of work by others.

Ton gives a full list of credits

Of course, none of what this would have been possible without the fine work that came before us!
so, let me state right now and make it completely clearly... we CLAIM NO PART OF THE ORIGINAL L39 DESIGN or CREATION, nor none of its updates or future additions.
we do not claim it's concept, design, creation or build in any way, shape, or form. we claim none of it's original files, nor even any 'ideas' that went into making those files. we claim none of its 3D or texture/skin work.

ALL SUCH CREDIT should and 'does' go to its rightful owners/creators... which are and include;

Aviator Mod Team:
Pink_Tigger - 3D
GJE52 - 3D
F22-Raptor-2006 - Java, FM

Phas3e - Default Skin

Also many thanks to Ferté Alais Virtuelle - Beta testing, skins, project management
and Frecce Tricolori Virtuali for MB-339 Sounds.

Very few of us create mods which are not built on the work of others, whether that means adapting or developing existing models or simply using things like the export tools or class hashers. It is collaboration which has got the game to where it is today.

[Deutschmark]

That's not the point Ash, the point he is making is the sly comment rhetoric from SAS GJ that you don't happen to see on SAS as you so claim... that's what this is about not the mod it self.

Deutschmark

[Beowolff]

quite right, DM and here's another he didn't see (it's still there and is completely unprovoked, merely a guy asking for some help sparked it.)



^^^ this one was evidently 'so' good that Storebought (a supposed editor there) had to get in on the act with a followup comment/attack.



I could (we all could) keep on posting them...but what's the point? even with proof positive he likely "won't be able to see 'em." and no pun nor personal attack intended there. that's just how it is, an example of the blindness and spin doctoring that goes on over there on a DAILY basis. if a person don't 'want' to see something...he won't, even if it's staring him in the face at point blank range.

[asheshouse]

I have to acknowledge that you have a point there.
I had not seen those. I don't read every thread that appears.
The post by GJE52 was necessary to avoid a download link for the Wilcatfish being posted.
The wording is "mildly" offensive IMO. No big deal really.

I don't see any value in the last post. It serves no purpose other than to stir things up.

So why did Storebror post it.
Was it perhaps some sort of retaliation for the extremely abusive post by Beowolff in March.

Storebought...reduced to S.neak A.nd S.teal?

Pretty hard to miss that direct personal attack.

If a mildly offensive post at SAS made over a month ago is the worst example is it not time to put a stop to personal attacks and retaliation. None of it adds anything to the value of the game.

Ashe

[Deutschmark]

Well Ash, its not that it happened over a month ago or that its mild or that its stands just to stir things up, its that it happens!, even though there might be a lull here and there it still happens.

Deutschmark

[ton414]

So why did Storebror post it.
Was it perhaps some sort of retaliation for the extremely abusive post by Beowolff in March.

Storebought...reduced to S.neak A.nd S.teal?

Extremely abusive post by Beowolff ?..., well that was another case of theft: the Seafire Pack, first includes my Seafire MK XVII and also uses all my work from my Seafire MK XVII as the basis for all aircraft: 3D, code, textures, skins, objects as new droptank, etc.
And then only appears in the credits: "Some 3D modifications (Mk. XVII), basic FMs and textures by ton".

When I protested in the thread, I was immediately banned, and GJE52 sent me a PM, where GJE52 insults me in an extremely serious and personal way.

Even Texx was banned for writing in the Seafire Pack thread: "thanks ton".

And you do not stop to tell us: we must shut up, if SAS attacks, steals and insults us, according to what you say, we must not say anything...

I can also put a lot of examples, when SAS put direct download links to our work without our permission, that too is theft.

The list of abuses of SAS against us would be infinite, but you only tell us: keep your mouth shut.

And...



ton.

[Beowolff]

I have to acknowledge that you have a point there.



I had not seen those. I don't read every thread that appears.




The wording is "mildly" offensive IMO. No big deal really.




I don't see any value in the last post. It serves no purpose other than to stir things up.

So why did Storebror post it.
Was it perhaps some sort of retaliation for the extremely abusive post by Beowolff in March.

Storebought...reduced to S.neak A.nd S.teal?

Pretty hard to miss that direct personal attack.



If a mildly offensive post at SAS made over a month ago is the worst example is it not time to put a stop to personal attacks and retaliation. None of it adds anything to the value of the game.



Ashe

[Ice_Eagle]

Found something that's explains SAS~GJE52's way of explaining his position:


asheshouse,

I got banned by SAS~GJE52 for.. now get this.. posting a third pic of my BF 109 G-14/AS 'Blau 11' for the third time in the screenshot thread.
And YES.. that was the OFFICIAL REASON. Now.. who's off the rocker here? I'll wait for your answer.

[bomberkiller]

Hi Ice,

all your skins are 1st class - ever!

But, what was SAS? Shit, forgotten...

wbr, Gerhard