[ACE-OF-ACES]

Not to pick on or single out tater718 here..

In that there are plenty examples out there

But I just found these posts to be the classical examples of how an opinion can be confused with a fact..

With that said allow me to point out where this happens in tater718s post(s) to show just how easy it is for anyone to make the mistake of thinking thier opinion is fact

The FM for this bird is probably a mistake.

Maybe..

Maybe not..

The only thing we can be sure of here is that no one has provided any proooff to say one way or the other. .

That is to say the FM is iniocnet until proven guilty!

And in such cases I default to Oleg and his expertise over any of the 'opinons' provdied thus far..

In that in this very thread we have 'opinions' for and aginst the Avengers turn rate..

So which opinion are we to belive?

The answer is none..

Lets move on..

The Avenger was known as "the Turkey" and for good reason. By all accounts that I remember reading it was never described as a manouverable airplane.

By all accounts that you remember reading

But what if you had read just one more account?

What if you had read what F4U-1_Corsair had read, i.e.

I have been reading up on Pilot's accounts of Avengers in action, for a campaign I have been working on, and all of them speak highly of its performance, one passage saying that he "handled it like a fighter" in maneuvers (this being a pilot who had flown F4F-3 fighters before midway). Another (perhaps more relevant) reference was of a pilot, who after dropping his torpedo, spotted a zero diving on him, managed to avoid it by "turning sharply."

Now had you read that account you may have had a different opinion..

Hard to say..

The point I am making here is our opinions are really worthless when it comes to saying if something is simulated realistic or not..

Why?

Because we all have different life experiences and thus we all have different opinions due to those experiences..

And we should NOT fool ourselves into thinking that just because 10 people agree with our opinion and 1 person does not agree with our opinion that the 10 people who agree with you means you are correct and the one who does not agree with you is wrong.

Why?

In that it could be a simple statistical manifestation of the fact that the world tends to have more fools in it than non-fools

Long story short flight models based on majority rules does not result in a more accurate flight model.

It carried a heavy loadout and was very resistant to battle damage but the idea that in RL it was a "fighter in mufti" is a little hard to believe

Hard for you to belive

Based on what you have read

But not hard for others to belive

Based on what they have read

As I noted above, opinions are based on what you have read (life experances)..

Thus it should be clear to all that an opinion is not fact.

considering the published performance specifications. Oh well

Again, not to pick on tarter718

But simply stating you have read published performace specifications without provding the book referene and or web link does not impress me and does not give his statment any more validity..

And even if he had provided a book referne and or web link I would still NOT be impresed until I had a chance to read the book reference and or web link..

Why?

Becase I can not tell you how many times I have gone to the trouble of reading what someone provided only to find out that it says exactally th oposite of what that someone thought it said. It does not really mater if thier misinterptation and thus final conclusion is due to a pre-existing bias or reading comprehention problem, the point to be made here is that all things are open to interptation..

So it should be clear to all that even if you provid what you think is proof to support your statment, upon futher investigaion (ie someone else reading it) you may find out that you just proved yourself wrong. But I think we can all agree that provding no proof makes the statment worthelss and that when you do provide proof at least your allowing others the chance to review your proof to ensure that everyone is in agreement with the interptation of the data.

I have been to many airshows. I have never seen the Turkey behave anything like the game version.

And one should not expect a 65+ year old plane to be flown like it is flown in the game, let alone expect factory fresh plane to be flown like it is in the game 65+ years ago..

Why?

Because the behavior in this game in no whay shape or form reflects the behavior of the pilots in WWII

Henc the name game vs. reality

So the air show behavior vs. in game behavior say nothing with regards to the turn rate accuracy of the Avenger..

I casually knew one guy who flew them in several CAF displays and all he said about them was that they were heavy and steady. Made a lot of noise,too.

And ask another guy who has flown it and you would probally get another qualitative responce..

But just like the books you read or have not read, if you keep reading or keep asking your likly to get alot of conflicting statemnts..

Why?

Beause such statements are typically not from a qualified test pilot flying under strict test conditions with measurement equipment to record and thus validdate the pilots experances..

And take a look at the Ju-52. A loop on take off? Aw,c'mon! I have a lot of fun with it so I hope it stays "broken". Enjoy them while you can,Guys!

Just to drive this point home..

As with the Avenger..

I have seen no proof provided here that says the Ju-52 could or could not do such things..

The thing we have to keep in mind is..

No flightsim ever WAS, IS, or WILL BE perfect@

Why?

Well for one obvious fact is that it is a simulation and thus by its vary nature it will never be perfect (ie real)..

And secondly there is no one deinitions of 'perfect'..

That is to say there are as many 'opinion's out there as to what perfct means as there are 'opinions' on the turn rate of the Avenger..

Thus the the only thing that will put oposing opinions to rest is the in-game comparsion to real world data..

So yes until than enjoy them while you can..

Just dont fool yourself into thinking that you experance (read opinion) is the end all be all definition of what is right and wrong with regards to how realistic a flight model is..

In that even to this day for ever 'real' spitfire pilot that you can find that said he was able to out turn a 109 there is a real 109 pilot out there that says he was able to out turn a Spitfire

And if that does not give you pause to stop and consider that your experances (read opinion) may not be all that you think they are than nothing ever will!