[Wolfstriked]

I absolutely love this!! Thanks to all who contribute.Long Live IL2!!!

Ive been away from Il2 for awhile due to the wobbles effect that Oleg threw into IL2.I see now that its been reduced by a large margin and Im very glad for that to Oleg and company.

Now since we are modding FM's (for new planes) I wantto know if its possible to remove the counter rotation on the single prop planes.

What I mean is that right now when you apply thrust the plane rotates in opposite direction to prop and this amount of rotation is directly related to speed of aircraft and prop speed.This is great as you trim out at various speeds and thrust settings.

But IL2 also has a rotation effect in opposite direction(only in single prop planes) that is not affected by speed or prop speed.This counter rotation is detrimental to the feel of IL2's fm and i cant understand why Oleg decided to add it.Test it by turning off "torque and gyro effects" in difficulty.Youll notice that with no torque or gyro effects the plane still banks heavily,justthat now you dont have the prop speed or the aircraft speed to add forces to it.So your constantly banking at all speeds.

By removing this I theorize that the planes will be more pleasant to handle.This seems to me as possible since you can alter a dual prop plane to not have any of this artificial counter rotation.

IMO just fighting one force in a "sim" is enough as we dont get the feedback that a real pilot does.The stick pulls in your hand when forces change on plane and you can just use more force to counter this.In IL2 Oleg has decided to allow these stick changes even though we cant feel that the stick is now actually pushing your hand in direction plane wants to travel.Same goes for flying straight and pushing rudder left and right.Yes the plane will also bank....BUT youll feel this in your stick and can just add force to counter and do a nice yaw.In Il2 you try to yaw and good luck

[Radoye]

You're talking about engine torque.

You can remove this by switching it off in the realism menu.

[RAF_Leigh]

to be honest with you

they will never change it

it was and is a current in IL2 and Real world and its physics torque

[.041 Safety Wire]

The stick forces in most WWII fighters was not as great as one might think as most of these warbirds were outfitted with servo or boost tabs on the control surfaces to lighten the stick forces during combat manuvering. Thes tabs move opposite the movement of the control surface and lighten the pilots workload considerably. Most pilots will tell you that you use right rudder on take off to counter engine torque which is not quite true. The forces acting on the aircraft during the TO run are P-factor, Gyroscopic precession, and assymetrical thrust during the climbout. This is what you are countering with the rudder. These forces are especially pronounced on tailwheel aircraft. As far as the aircraft trying to roll because of engine torque you do not feel this thru the stick. Rudder in a turn is used to counter adverse yaw which is the high wing creating more drag than the low wing and trying to yaw the aircraft away from the turn. The high wing is developing more lift because of the down aileron hence more drag and that is what yaws the aircraft away from the direction of bank. Basically the rudder streamlines your turn.

[Wolfstriked]

The stick forces in most WWII fighters was not as great as one might think as most of these warbirds were outfitted with servo or boost tabs on the control surfaces to lighten the stick forces during combat manuvering. Thes tabs move opposite the movement of the control surface and lighten the pilots workload considerably. Most pilots will tell you that you use right rudder on take off to counter engine torque which is not quite true. The forces acting on the aircraft during the TO run are P-factor, Gyroscopic precession, and assymetrical thrust during the climbout. This is what you are countering with the rudder. These forces are especially pronounced on tailwheel aircraft. As far as the aircraft trying to roll because of engine torque you do not feel this thru the stick. Rudder in a turn is used to counter adverse yaw which is the high wing creating more drag than the low wing and trying to yaw the aircraft away from the turn. The high wing is developing more lift because of the down aileron hence more drag and that is what yaws the aircraft away from the direction of bank. Basically the rudder streamlines your turn.

Stick forces were terrible.Many pilots died from not being able to pull out of dives.One of the main complaints of BF109 pilots was that cockpits were so cramped that they couldnt use leverage to muscle the plane around and thats part of why it was a notorious handle at speed.

[Wolfstriked]

You're talking about engine torque.

You can remove this by switching it off in the realism menu.

I know,when I remove the torgue and gyro effects(I like these effects BTW) there is still a gyro effect not connected to the speed of the plane or the torque the engine.

By removing just the base roll to one side I feel that the FM would become more dynamic and smoother at same time.

[Wolfstriked]

to be honest with you

they will never change it

it was and is a current in IL2 and Real world and its physics torque

My motto is ....never say never.

Do you remember the beta being tested that everyone was raving about how powerful the torgue was.People saying that at full thrust the plane was rolling like crazy at slow speeds.Then Oleg releases this dumbed down version and everyone was complaining about wobbles and how weak the roll became.

Well maybe just maybe we could get back what was promised??

[.041 Safety Wire]

The stick forces in most WWII fighters was not as great as one might think as most of these warbirds were outfitted with servo or boost tabs on the control surfaces to lighten the stick forces during combat manuvering. Thes tabs move opposite the movement of the control surface and lighten the pilots workload considerably. Most pilots will tell you that you use right rudder on take off to counter engine torque which is not quite true. The forces acting on the aircraft during the TO run are P-factor, Gyroscopic precession, and assymetrical thrust during the climbout. This is what you are countering with the rudder. These forces are especially pronounced on tailwheel aircraft. As far as the aircraft trying to roll because of engine torque you do not feel this thru the stick. Rudder in a turn is used to counter adverse yaw which is the high wing creating more drag than the low wing and trying to yaw the aircraft away from the turn. The high wing is developing more lift because of the down aileron hence more drag and that is what yaws the aircraft away from the direction of bank. Basically the rudder streamlines your turn.

Stick forces were terrible.Many pilots died from not being able to pull out of dives.One of the main complaints of BF109 pilots was that cockpits were so cramped that they couldnt use leverage to muscle the plane around and thats part of why it was a notorious handle at speed.

Thats BS not being able to pull out of a dive is a compressibility problem

Posted Sun November 16 2008 11:20 Hide Post
Well the dive is just an example even at level speeds the later war 109's just wont turn. anything beyond 400Kph and the elavator will only deflect about 10 degrees. Now name any fighter that you only have 10 degrees stick movement against just as fast fighters with full deflection and ill show you a dead pilot. Sure you can slow down below that and turn just great but the problem is that your opponent doesnt want to slow down!

Now we can go into the argument of well the real 109's had a heavy stick at high speeds. This is true and I do not dispute that claim but The late Mark Hanna flew the restored 109G-10 and had this to say about its handling.
"The roll rate is very good and very positive below about 400Kph and the amount ofeffort needed to produce the relevant nose movemnt seems exactly right." and "Pitch tends to be heavy above 400Kph but it is still easy to manage up to 500Kph and the aircraft is perfectly happy carying out low level looping menouvers from 550Kph and below. Above 550Kph, one peculiarity is a slight nose down trim change as you accelerate. When you menouver above 500Kph, two hands are required for a more agressive performance, either that or get on the trimmer for help. Despite this heavying up, its still quite easy to get 5 G's at this speed"

Now that is nothing like the 109's we have in this sim who get their sticks cemented into place way sooner than expected and way to suddenly. Their is nothing gradual about this phenominun. You hit a certain speed and thats it no stick movement.

"The FW-190 is a small aircraft period. It flys like its huge, It hits like its huge but in dimensions its tiny. Goering didnt call it his deadly horse fly for nothing"-Me

[Wolfstriked]

The stick forces in most WWII fighters was not as great as one might think as most of these warbirds were outfitted with servo or boost tabs on the control surfaces to lighten the stick forces during combat manuvering. Thes tabs move opposite the movement of the control surface and lighten the pilots workload considerably. Most pilots will tell you that you use right rudder on take off to counter engine torque which is not quite true. The forces acting on the aircraft during the TO run are P-factor, Gyroscopic precession, and assymetrical thrust during the climbout. This is what you are countering with the rudder. These forces are especially pronounced on tailwheel aircraft. As far as the aircraft trying to roll because of engine torque you do not feel this thru the stick. Rudder in a turn is used to counter adverse yaw which is the high wing creating more drag than the low wing and trying to yaw the aircraft away from the turn. The high wing is developing more lift because of the down aileron hence more drag and that is what yaws the aircraft away from the direction of bank. Basically the rudder streamlines your turn.

Stick forces were terrible.Many pilots died from not being able to pull out of dives.One of the main complaints of BF109 pilots was that cockpits were so cramped that they couldnt use leverage to muscle the plane around and thats part of why it was a notorious handle at speed.

Thats BS not being able to pull out of a dive is a compressibility problem

Posted Sun November 16 2008 11:20 Hide Post
Well the dive is just an example even at level speeds the later war 109's just wont turn. anything beyond 400Kph and the elavator will only deflect about 10 degrees. Now name any fighter that you only have 10 degrees stick movement against just as fast fighters with full deflection and ill show you a dead pilot. Sure you can slow down below that and turn just great but the problem is that your opponent doesnt want to slow down!

Now we can go into the argument of well the real 109's had a heavy stick at high speeds. This is true and I do not dispute that claim but The late Mark Hanna flew the restored 109G-10 and had this to say about its handling.
"The roll rate is very good and very positive below about 400Kph and the amount ofeffort needed to produce the relevant nose movemnt seems exactly right." and "Pitch tends to be heavy above 400Kph but it is still easy to manage up to 500Kph and the aircraft is perfectly happy carying out low level looping menouvers from 550Kph and below. Above 550Kph, one peculiarity is a slight nose down trim change as you accelerate. When you menouver above 500Kph, two hands are required for a more agressive performance, either that or get on the trimmer for help. Despite this heavying up, its still quite easy to get 5 G's at this speed"

Now that is nothing like the 109's we have in this sim who get their sticks cemented into place way sooner than expected and way to suddenly. Their is nothing gradual about this phenominun. You hit a certain speed and thats it no stick movement.

"The FW-190 is a small aircraft period. It flys like its huge, It hits like its huge but in dimensions its tiny. Goering didnt call it his deadly horse fly for nothing"-Me

I am nuetral on the 109 dead stick issue.I do think that its needs a bit more manuverability but just a bit while I think planes like the 190 need to be toned down alot in high speed turns.

BUT thats not what post is about.Please dont change thread

Its about removing the roll of plane thats not affected by anything.Its just a certain roll set into each plane.Remove this and I feel the FM would come to life.....or it may become unstable Im just suggesting.

BTW...this site has IL2 as a new sim on my PC.Just now flying a mission in G6 with the clouds,cockpits,sounds,tracers,smoke, etc its a beauty of a sim!!

Thanks again!

EDIT....did they change the trim settings on the 109's?Since it has no rudder or aileron trim I remember Oleg saying that they model the trim tabs on the control surfaces that the crew would set for cruise speed.Right now the 109 trims out at 550KPH???thats way higher than I remember.

[Jg3_Hartmann]

Now I know what you mean

Well, every plane is trimmed for a certain speed. And as long as you

[Ramstein]

................Do you remember the beta being tested that everyone was raving about how powerful the torgue was.People saying that at full thrust the plane was rolling like crazy at slow speeds.Then Oleg releases this dumbed down version and everyone was complaining about wobbles and how weak the roll became.

Well maybe just maybe we could get back what was promised??

There were many of us that had no clue what these 'wobbles' were that some people complained about.. and I still have no clue what these wobbles were (since I never experienced them)... so those of us that never had these problems think that either the pilots were drinking to much or had worn out joysticks...

:lol:

[RAF_Leigh]

just saying this

you

you CANT make everyone happy it just wont work

[Wolfstriked]

Tried flying today with gyro effects turned off.Plane is sweet and using rudder is so intuitive and easy.....feels great!!

But its boring.Once you get used to the dynamic stuff gyro setting adds you cant go vanilla.

SO once again is it possible to make single prop planes not have the counter roll added??I imagine it will make the gyro effects seem more dynamic and enhanced.

[Saburo Sakai]

you are talking about torque. to remove torque from the planes is removing a big part of the realism.

its like revving up a car, the engine twists opposite to the motion of the crank, only difference is there are four wheels on the ground to stop the car rolling over, in a plane , the engine twists the body and as there is nothing to stop the twist then it begins to roll.
this can be countered by aileron or rudder trim.

[Radoye]

For those who don't like real physics, there are plenty of arcade games to choose from. Just don't play sims if you can't handle 'em.