[Aymar_Mauri]

IIRC, there was a lot of discussion in several IL2 forums regarding the innacuracy of the Ta-152C FM.

The problems mentioned were:

• 1) It was discovered, when analysing Oleg's FM data, that the wing area wasn't correct. Instead of a wing with an increase of 1.5 sqmm in regard to the FW190, it uses the FW190's wing area. The 3D model has the correct wing area increase, but this isn't taken in to consideration for the in-game FM calculations.
  
  This agravates it's energy bleed and lack of sustained turn at all speeds (specially medium to low speeds). Since the 3D model has the correct increased wing area, this makes it quite probable that someone in Oleg's crew forgot to make the FM correction before releasing the new plane.
  
  2) Regarding the aceleration factor for the DB603 engine. It seems too slow like it is the case for Oleg's BMW 801 and Pratt & Whitney R-2800 engines.
  
  IIRC, in the standard game, it is something like 0.4 for both of these compared with 0.7 for Merlin. Which is very strange if we take in to consideration that both had very good acceleration and throttle response (specially the BMW 801).
  
  IMHO, although being unable to check the FM data, the acceleration factor or the kommandogerat for the DB603 must be off.
  
  3) Some people mentioned the weight was off in regard to RL data. Since I have no access to the FM data I can't say how accurate this claim is.

In regard to versions, we seem to have the Ta-152C1 modelled in game. Maybe another interesting one would be the Ta-152C3 version with improved radio and a Mk103 instead of a Mk108 through the propeller hub.

This is why I would like to open a discussion regarding these matters. I would apreciate people's imput. Specially people with more info on these planes and/or people with access to the FM data for comparation.

[md_wild_weasel]

didnt Vanir go into great depth with the ta152 FM? .. im sure someone will hunt the post..I think he said stock FM wasnt that bad...

[md_wild_weasel]

i found one of vamirs posts...
Here's an example of precisely what we're doing here, working closely with the Luftwaffe Experten site (please head there for detailed queries regarding all Luftwaffe birds) and strictly documented and otherwise soundly authoritive (eg. author of the Schiffer Ta152 book and world recognised Ta152/Fw190D experten Dietmar Hermann) sources.

Empty weight 3650kg (in game) 4010kg (historical team adjustment)
Take off weight 4900kg (in game) 5322kg (historical team adjustment)
MW50 weight 100kg (in game) 127kg (historical team adjustment)
Power output DB603LA sondernotleistung WEP 1944PS (in game) 2079PS (team adjustment)
Max WEP boost pressure 1.8ata (in game) 1.75ata (historical)

And if the performance of the Ta152C-1/R11 actually decreases from the in-game version, then we'll still have a more accurate one and that is the point. We wish to let the chips fall where they may. The figures though...beg to differ. I mean 530km/h a sea level on kampfleistung, no MW50 and better than 13.5m/s average initial climb to 0-2500m, up that 2m/s and 40km/h for sondernotleistung and those are the Focke Wulf figures and those provided by the best celebrated experts. So if we make the corrections accurate, and the figures of our model match the historical mid range (kampfleistung) figures, then we'll have done what we set out to achieve. Though again maximum level speed capabilities of Oleg's model are just fine and quite accurate, they won't be touched...well actually I'm considering reducing the sea level max speed as it is 600km/h and so far it is looking like that doesn't fit for B4/MW50 and 1.75ata, I've got 570-80 max in my figures so far, with C3 fuel required to break 600.

Plus added some historical loadout options (ETC503, Mk103M, etc.).

Looking over Oleg's weight figures he appears to have not included increased armour from early prototypes (though it is there for damage modelling), ammunition, and only one fuel tank was being used (368kg instead of 680kg, although he listed correct usable fuel weight, it was being subtracted from the a/c loaded weight incorrectly).

I'd also like to stress our FM adjustments are extremely conservative, preferring to error on the side of caution before exaggerating any performance capabilities.
It'll be funny if it turns out to be a real pig, but it'll be fast on part throttle and climb like a rocket. Just as it did in 1945.

[Aymar_Mauri]

i found one of vamirs posts...
Here's an example of precisely what we're doing here, working closely with the Luftwaffe Experten site (please head there for detailed queries regarding all Luftwaffe birds) and strictly documented and otherwise soundly authoritive (eg. author of the Schiffer Ta152 book and world recognised Ta152/Fw190D experten Dietmar Hermann) sources.

Empty weight 3650kg (in game) 4010kg (historical team adjustment)
Take off weight 4900kg (in game) 5322kg (historical team adjustment)
MW50 weight 100kg (in game) 127kg (historical team adjustment)
Power output DB603LA sondernotleistung WEP 1944PS (in game) 2079PS (team adjustment)
Max WEP boost pressure 1.8ata (in game) 1.75ata (historical)

And if the performance of the Ta152C-1/R11 actually decreases from the in-game version, then we'll still have a more accurate one and that is the point. We wish to let the chips fall where they may. The figures though...beg to differ. I mean 530km/h a sea level on kampfleistung, no MW50 and better than 13.5m/s average initial climb to 0-2500m, up that 2m/s and 40km/h for sondernotleistung and those are the Focke Wulf figures and those provided by the best celebrated experts. So if we make the corrections accurate, and the figures of our model match the historical mid range (kampfleistung) figures, then we'll have done what we set out to achieve. Though again maximum level speed capabilities of Oleg's model are just fine and quite accurate, they won't be touched...well actually I'm considering reducing the sea level max speed as it is 600km/h and so far it is looking like that doesn't fit for B4/MW50 and 1.75ata, I've got 570-80 max in my figures so far, with C3 fuel required to break 600.

Plus added some historical loadout options (ETC503, Mk103M, etc.).

Looking over Oleg's weight figures he appears to have not included increased armour from early prototypes (though it is there for damage modelling), ammunition, and only one fuel tank was being used (368kg instead of 680kg, although he listed correct usable fuel weight, it was being subtracted from the a/c loaded weight incorrectly).

I'd also like to stress our FM adjustments are extremely conservative, preferring to error on the side of caution before exaggerating any performance capabilities.
It'll be funny if it turns out to be a real pig, but it'll be fast on part throttle and climb like a rocket. Just as it did in 1945.

So, what you are saying is that it has less weight in game than in RL but produces less power than it should? That sounds very strange. It still flies like a pig in-game.

What about kommandogerat efficiency? Is it like Oleg's Anton or like Oleg's Dora?

And what about wing area data for the FM? Is it correct or not?

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

Has it occurred to you that Oleg's staff may have entered different values because they understand how the flight model engine will interpret them?

There are a lot of other features of a wing than wing area that can matter. Even things like cannon bulges can effect flow over the airfoil and change its performance and characteristics.

I'm not saying that Oleg is right, I'm just saying you can't know he's wrong - unless you are a real aeronautical engineer specialising in airfoils and willing to do a lot of work.

[Aymar_Mauri]

didnt Vanir go into great depth with the ta152 FM? .. im sure someone will hunt the post..I think he said stock FM wasnt that bad...

I did not read anything in these forums reagarding the Ta-152. I looked in quite a lot of forums but did not found the info you mention. :?

[Aymar_Mauri]

And if the performance of the Ta152C-1/R11 actually decreases from the in-game version, then we'll still have a more accurate one and that is the point.

Your team is already doing this variant? I did not know this.

[Guest]

in my lay opinion, it doesn't fly the way it should. Feels like it looses speed and lift too easily.

[md_wild_weasel]

please read my posting correctly.. I said Vanir was doing the FM

here is the post you missed..~~~~> viewtopic.php?t=14162&highlight=ta152

i would also like to state this: Im sure that not many people here can actually say that they flew any given plane type during a combat scenario. So maybe just because it handles like a pig or doesnt fly like a spitfire then maybe just maybe you could be flying it incorrectly or it did handle like a pig. After all Fm is based on technical data and im sure Oleg and his team did the best they could.

[Paulo Hirth]

I have the two corrected versions, much more realistic, BIG thank you to Vanir!

[Guest]

please read my posting correctly.. I said Vanir was doing the FM

here is the post you missed..~~~~> viewtopic.php?t=14162&highlight=ta152

i would also like to state this: Im sure that not many people here can actually say that they flew any given plane type during a combat scenario. So maybe just because it handles like a pig or doesnt fly like a spitfire then maybe just maybe you could be flying it incorrectly or it did handle like a pig. After all Fm is based on technical data and im sure Oleg and his team did the best they could.

That is why we say "lay" opinion. For me, a plane should generally fly the way it looks. The Ta-152 is a late war high performance plane that feel like something is lacking. It might be pilot error.

for me the 109 and 190 feel fairly right.

[RichardH]

i found one of vamirs posts...
Here's an example of precisely what we're doing here, working closely with the Luftwaffe Experten site (please head there for detailed queries regarding all Luftwaffe birds) and strictly documented and otherwise soundly authoritive (eg. author of the Schiffer Ta152 book and world recognised Ta152/Fw190D experten Dietmar Hermann) sources.

Empty weight 3650kg (in game) 4010kg (historical team adjustment)
Take off weight 4900kg (in game) 5322kg (historical team adjustment)
MW50 weight 100kg (in game) 127kg (historical team adjustment)
Power output DB603LA sondernotleistung WEP 1944PS (in game) 2079PS (team adjustment)
Max WEP boost pressure 1.8ata (in game) 1.75ata (historical)

And if the performance of the Ta152C-1/R11 actually decreases from the in-game version, then we'll still have a more accurate one and that is the point. We wish to let the chips fall where they may. The figures though...beg to differ. I mean 530km/h a sea level on kampfleistung, no MW50 and better than 13.5m/s average initial climb to 0-2500m, up that 2m/s and 40km/h for sondernotleistung and those are the Focke Wulf figures and those provided by the best celebrated experts. So if we make the corrections accurate, and the figures of our model match the historical mid range (kampfleistung) figures, then we'll have done what we set out to achieve. Though again maximum level speed capabilities of Oleg's model are just fine and quite accurate, they won't be touched...well actually I'm considering reducing the sea level max speed as it is 600km/h and so far it is looking like that doesn't fit for B4/MW50 and 1.75ata, I've got 570-80 max in my figures so far, with C3 fuel required to break 600.

Plus added some historical loadout options (ETC503, Mk103M, etc.).

Looking over Oleg's weight figures he appears to have not included increased armour from early prototypes (though it is there for damage modelling), ammunition, and only one fuel tank was being used (368kg instead of 680kg, although he listed correct usable fuel weight, it was being subtracted from the a/c loaded weight incorrectly).

I'd also like to stress our FM adjustments are extremely conservative, preferring to error on the side of caution before exaggerating any performance capabilities.
It'll be funny if it turns out to be a real pig, but it'll be fast on part throttle and climb like a rocket. Just as it did in 1945.

Quick question. What does "ata" mean? is it the german equivalent of PSI or "inches of mercury"?

[GeneralPsycho]

I have the two corrected versions, much more realistic, BIG thank you to Vanir!

where did you get the mod? its not available for download :roll:

[Pongie]

...applying via betatester@ok?.com.
Simple as that. :lol:

On the other hand we know what mess will occur when using beta A/c and installing official Spit XIVs, see the latter's reply toll. I'll stay official hysterically waiting though...

Greets,
Pongie

[Guest]

I have the two corrected versions, much more realistic, BIG thank you to Vanir!

where did you get the mod? its not available for download :roll:

...there are three 152C's,C-0 hotrod preproduction model (DB603EC engine,4xMG151/20),C-1/R11 (Mk108 & 4xMG151/20,DB603LA engine) and C-3/R11 (Mk103 & 4xMG151/15 plus bomb and rocket loadout)...