[Kwiatek]

Yes there is near impossible to make all these new stuff for historical accurace. We would have new game then.

But im playing flight simulators from many years- Il2 from the begining - and always for me the most important thing was flight model. I dont care as much beatifull graphic, music and other things. Yes DM is also important but i have not such many influcnce for it. My main goal is FM. And i repeat i prefer to get 4 or 10 much close to historical accuracy FM's then 100000 arcadish and dubfull. DM, weapons accuracy - these things are still in game no metter of FM you used. These things dont depend of flight model - is it made by 1C, AAA or UP.

So if i have to choose which FM i would have to play - more acradish and simplier (balanced) or more hisorical accuracy im always taking the second.


Sry that we could miss here.

[megalopsuche]

Is that it?

Kwiatek, you and your ilk are half the reason that RoF has such strict drm. I hope you never find a way to make its aircraft more "realistic."

[Kwiatek]

Is that it?

Kwiatek, you and your ilk are half the reason that RoF has such strict drm. I hope you never find a way to make its aircraft more "realistic."

You will be suprised but i really like ROF flight physic and appreciate it much more then IL2. It really remind me much better flying immersion then in IL2.

I could say more im in contact with Pertrovich from Neoqb which is responsible for Flight Model in ROF

[Monguse]

@ megalopsuche

Please let's keep this thread civil. It wont serve any purpose if we digress.

@Kwiatek

PM me here and let's trade emails, I think we might have a solution.

[Storebror]

One thing in advance: Kwiatek, could you do me a favour in recognizing that none of us, neither you, me, or anybody else involved here or at UP or anywhere else where this discussion is alive, is "whining", "screaming" or whatever else I've had to read? This would make reading your posts much more pleasure, at least to me. Thank you.
Additionally please let me show respect to your work on the FMs which is highly appreciated.
I understand that it's a lot of work which you've been doing, you invested a lot of time and effort and gathered pretty much experience, which is definitely way ahead of everything about FM modeling I could think of atm.
By being a bit more polite and maybe thinking again about some of Monguse's and Z's arguments, especially respecting someone else's work, you could gain a lot of glory, honor and admiration for your work.

Both avenues are acceptable provided the end user gets the whole package and not anything less.

Yes, yes and again: YES!
That's what I'm talking about all the time.
I don't mind false FMs. I don't mind modified FMs. I don't mind partial "historicalization".
As long as I can get hands on the whole package and thus being free to choose which parts of it I like to use, I feel comfortable with each and every work that's being applied to this wonderful game by it's hopefully then rejoined community.
Joining Z's allegory, if my favourite grocery would decide that peppers have to be red, I'd rather switch to another one where I can have the peppers in the colour of my choice, no matter whether or not I like reds the most.

Best regards - Mike

[Panama Red]

I like "Historical" too, but some people seem to forget that IL-2 like all the other flight simulators in the end is still a "SIMULATOR" and as such (with only so many CPU/GPU cycles in today's PC) there are always compromises (time, labor & resources).

Thus, I agree 100% with Monguse that for this GAME (and some people seem to forget that IL-2 is still a game too) to advance, a common standard is the best way for IL-2 to advance as far as it can before time passes it by.

[Radoye]

... for this GAME (and some people seem to forget that IL-2 is still a game too) to advance, a common standard is the best way ...

Common standard is an absolute must!!!

But now, as we are about to get that common standard with the apparent unification effort that is going on (not so smoothly but still going), this is the perfect opportunity to decide what exactly should this common standard be.

Do we want to have the so-called "Oleg's World" reality fixed and bring closer to "Real World" reality (or at least try to do so) or is "Oleg's World" good enough and all new content added in the future should be made to conform to it?

The decision can be to attempt to make a full modification of all content, FM/DM/WM and all including the stock flyables, or just a partial one (FM or WM only), or just stick with what we have now. Because the new "Unified Pack" will defacto set a new standard for online play it will be the "new stock". As long as everyone online is running with the same package it does not matter if the original stock flyables are still in it or not - what is important is that everyone has the exactly same planes.

The debate we have now is not unlike the debate that was going on at the Ubizoo back when first mods started to appear. There was one camp that believed all mods are bad and that modding will destroy the gameplay, while the other believed modding is the way to go and to make the IL-2 community even stronger. We can see now which one was right, because this game is today stronger than ever, and it has lasted us much longer than it would if there were no mods.

This is a big decision, one that is not to be taken lightly, but it needs to be taken quick or otherwise the opportunity will pass us by. Whatever is the decision, we all need to stick with it.

The sniping and jabbing that is going on between AAA and UP/SAS (and to make matters worse, this seems to be fuelled and encouraged by some high ranking members of BOTH these communities) does not help the situation one bit. You know who you are - SHAME ON YOU!

The modder community has proven it once before that it is capable of making the right decision and preserve the integrity of the game making it possible to survive and thrive so long. Now it's the time to show this maturity and integrity once again and work together. If we do, the possibilities are limitless. If we don't - it all dies here and now.

That's my $0.02 worth.

[56RAF_klem]

Good posts by Bbury and fly_zo on page 4 and Monguse doing his best to pour oil on troubled waters.

You can't just pick at a few FMs to change and leave the rest or even have them drag their feet for months or years, it would cripple the game and move it further from being a simulation than it is now.

I suspect that getting the balance right (yes, even in more up to date, more realsitic FMs and everything else that goes with the game) is one of the things that causes such a delay for SoW:BoB.

There's a lot of heat, feeling, ego and passion running through this thread but a game/simulation out of kilter due to partial or selective changes would be a disaster. Play about as much as you like off line, but if the on-line game is going to work effectively we need stability, consistency and some control. For example, what sense does it make to have two models of P51, close to eachother in RL, with significantly different FMs or DMs in the game? Fly it off-line for perfection if you like but don't throw the on-line game off-balance. In fact it's on-line where consistent FMs and DMs matter more than anywhere else as you want to be pitching against other people's skills without a sudden uber plane turning up. The FMs and DMs may not be perfect but that's why Oleg is developing the next generation.

The fact is I am so concerned about some of the inconsistencies in UP2.0 I would not feel comfortable flying in it even though it has some really nice advantages like the new .exe's. It does seem to me that HSFX offers more stability for on-line play.

It's a shame. I thought the mod community was coming together.

[Trooper117]

Mmm.. I can guarantee you that even when SoW comes out, there will be an extremely short pause before an 'expert' will be telling you that Oleg has got this or that wrong..
it happened when IL2 first came out, and it will happen when SoW comes out, absolutely stake my life on it..
I just fly with what I have and enjoy it regardless of wether the FM is perfect or not, it's just a cracking good game after all said and done.
When I was part of a squad, we used to relish having the 'underdog' aircraft that everyone said was crap, and by using good tactics and teamwork would still manage to better some of the uber classed aircraft anyway..
Tactics, teamwork, good stuational awareness is the key to enjoying this game, not perfect fm. :mrgreen:

[Monguse]

I'm sure the new exe files will be part of 4.2 afterall, it was Charlie chap that sent them along (from Lesnihu) to begin with.

[Guest]

I'm sure the new exe files will be part of 4.2 afterall, it was Charlie chap that sent them along (from Lesnihu) to begin with.

Wrong Guse. The new DF Server .exe files were modified/created by me. Charles sent some exe files to me that were not working because of incorrect JVM settings.
And the LesniHU had nothing to do with this.
All the .exe are modified by me with the exception of the 1GB exe for client (not the TrackIR version).
And BTW, didn't you say "Debranding" ? What makes you think that the "4.2 HSFX" , whenever is released, will be the "common" effort?
Sorry Guse, but the deal says to start something COMMON, all of us. If you keep on this "4.2 HSFX" i'm afraid that there will be no "unification" at all.

Best regards

EDIT:
Please guse elaborate a bit more on this. "WHY" the HSFX in not "Branded" and at the same time the UP "IS" "Branded"? Is there any kind of "corporation" behind it?
What is the difference between the HSFX and the UP names ?

EDIT 2:
Why such an attitude? Trying to "degrade" anyone else's attempts. WHO made possibly the use of crt=2 with the 4.09m? WHO made the new and more secure crt?
WHO undermines the "unification" idea by even withdrawing his "squad" from USLG because another mod-pack is chosen instead of what he supports?
No need to say more. My point is clear.

EDIT 3:
And i will state again the obvious: The HSFX has nothing to do with UI . It was\is a tottaly different project inspired by Charles and the rest of the SEOW community (Shades, cmirko, etc..) to fulfill their specific needs.The fact that "you" "support" HSFX doesn't change the obvious that HSFX is not UI. UP does not "fight against" HSFX since we were\are collaborating with Charles and the rest of SEOW community for a long time. Just for clarification.

[Monguse]

There is no conspiracy behind anything


First things first, I stand corrected. Hades, good work on the exes.

Now, the goal was to de-brand. The goal was to work together. As you and I spoke, HSFX for now is a neutral build.

Lets talk about CTR2 shall we. If you remember one reason all this came to a head was because I as CO of the Fallen Angles explained to my squadron the pitfalls of running a MOD competition without extra security. FA left followed by others. I did send you , pappy and one other USL guy that are admins at USL they why and how things can be done to allow cheating. After which you accused me of undermining "working together" I called for a meeting on TS so we can iron out things and point out what could be done.

The conversation at USL TS went something like this. In a mod situation you still have areas that can be exploited mainly XXX and XXX were you can edit XXX and fly XXX and ...

On TS you said yes and some kind of requirements were garnered from that conversation from all of us. Now CRT2 thanks to many is much tighter. This however falls short in that a new value should have been rather than '2' because 2 was designed as is to check for classes and fm. CRT2 could have been left alone as it was and for competitions a new checkruntime value could have been used allowing for more stringent checks. This would have allowed a couple of things:

• (a). Enforce FM and Class files using crt2 (standard). This allows the user to install new maps textures and the like, just like game default.
  
  (b). New values starting at say 10 (equal to 0 game default) - no runtime check; 11 ( enhanced CRT1); 12 (enhanced crt2 as Zuti has done.
  Using different checkruntime values would satisfy any additional security measures without stepping on existing game security values.
  

Now to continue. After these USL checks were added I passed the information to my squad (FA) that the new CRT2 works like a charm. If they opt not to participate, its not me. After all it is up to the guys not me.

To clarify a bit further, USL went mod competition before these changes. I specifically explained to the squadron that under no circumstances should any competition be performed under ANY mod pack, meaning HSFX, UP, UI or any other mod pack out there simply because of the open security holes brought up by the wrapper.dll and the original sound mod.

I reiterated the same message while I was on TS with you, Pappy and Lazarus. If you remember, Pappy left for dinner as well as I during our meeting on TS. We then continued to hammer out what could be done before USL went live.

To clear the air, I'm not degrading anyone, every ones efforts are appreciated by many (including me) especially the new check runtime by Zuti (see note (b) above) with requirements gathered at the TS meeting.

Now, HSFX is a different project I agree but that by no means makes it unviable for online play. After all, SOEW is using that as a coop and we have been using vanilla HSFX 4.1 under single user, QMB and dedicated dogfight campaign without issues at all. Hence the statement that HSFX is for SEOW and UP is for online is baffling, unless of course UP has totally different flight models and more aircraft than HSFX at this time.

HSFX is the root of your mod pack plain and simple. HSFX contains all the mods by many people all debugged without java errors.

Now this is what kills me. UP uses HSFX and now everyone on the planet gives accolades to UP all the while the core of the UP functionality is HSFX.

The additional content by you to community are the new JVM fixes to the game EXE. Zuti has done an excellent job on the MDF and everyone loves it. Many authors be they map makers, effects guys, 3D modelers and the like have donated as well to the "mod pool".

Let's look at HSFX, much of every ones content is used with due credit and it is specifically tailored (meaning aircraft and functionality) to be used for SEOW. That however does not diminish the fact that HSFX can still be used as a dedicated server, after all you now have a slider in 2.0 that allows a server to be HSFX.

Now is it right to re brand all that content and call it UP?

As far as the UI, again I state, the UI was made to fill a gap allowing the non-tech guy to install all the mods simply. It was never intended to be the answer to everything it was never intended to be the de facto in any way. It was a collection of mods that were easy to install and gave the end user (online and offline) flexibility.

I'm aware that for a very long time you have collaborated with Charles and the efforts of SEOW. That however does not diminish the fact that UP for some reason changes the FM from HSFX and from other modders at will without any notification.

For the moment let's take the current P51's you guys placed in UP 1.8 totally different than what we originally had. Let's look at the 51's you placed in 2.0, very different from 1.8, the 51 in UP 2.0 one as noted bySani at your site are so close to each other (UP 2.0 and Wolf FM) that now they are almost twins. Seems Wolf did his homework after all.

Now, what about other FM's? I ran a small data mining report if you want it.

See, the bigger picture is give credit where credit is due and don't change squat unless a contact with the original author is established. If by some change the author was unfortunate and got hit by a bus then and only then can an edit be accomplished by a team of more than one person.

We all need ONE set of flight and damage models so everyone is compatible with everyone. This way there is no need for a specialized/branded FM mod slider to JSGME.


The door is still open, I'm all ears.

[Scharnhorst1943]

Very interesting debate.

I myself use mods from both AAA and SAS. I use SAS buttons for one simple reason, it is compatible with almost EVERY mod. For me at least (and I am guessing for many others too) it is not a matter of correct FM or DM, but using SAS buttons I can fly with the most mods and I am the most up to date.

Also, as an offliner, there are certain mods that I want to have. These include opening canopies for all planes as well as correct FM's for AI flyables like Avenger, Kate and B-17 ... Also UP has many things that AAA and other modders neglect. I use the example for Static Aircraft. As a campaign and mission builder I get pissed when a new plane is released without a static object. How can I include the new planes in DGen and DCG or even single missions without static objects??? To me it is half-assed to release a plane without a static object. Everyone in the IL2 community knows about the campaign and mission builders. UP has updated most if not all current releases with static planes. I very much like the direction SAS has gone in THIS respect. They have an online and offline buttons file. That way offline guys can have opening canopies and such for all planes including stock, but only online guys can still have compatibility without any smoking bug. I definitely think this is the way to go, even for AAA. I do honestly hope AAA would seriously consider this in future.

I cannot say I have more allegiance to one site over another. I think most people started using SAS buttons for two reasons.

(1) AAA stopped making any buttons updates
(2) SAS buttons is most up to date (almost on a weekly or even daily basis)

I think that if AAA would start making new up to date Aircraft installers more people would use AAA buttons as in the past.

I also don't understand why everyone is so quick to condemn SAS and UP. The SAS site is heaven for an offliner like me. They do offer some tweaks that make immersion for me and other offliners so much better. I am not saying SAS is better then AAA.

Like I said. SAS offers more planes, more material like static planes for ALL planes so that I can actually do my campaign building, and they are the most up to date with everyone else. So I go to them more.

Honestly, if AAA would make regular updates to buttons to maintain compatibility with not just AAA mods, but also mods outside of AAA then I think almost everyone would flock to AAA. I know I would. Like many others I started here at AAA when everything started and the sim was hacked in the beginning. So there will always be a special place with me for AAA. However, I think AAA is in a transition mode. Sometimes I wonder if even the AAA staff know where they are going (No disrespect, I am not attacking AAA) I guess I just have trouble seeing where everything is going.

Like I said before, I am an offliner, and AAA caters to the online croud. Here at AAA offliners are almost an afterthought. At SAS they are willing to make concessions to allow for offline mods, such as opening cannopies or alternate offline buttons version.

Just some thoughts.


Additional Edit:

I hear everyone talking about unifying the IL-2 mod community ... but everyone seems to forget the offliners ... :roll: I personally think the main reason and most of the opposition to unification is comming largely from the difference in Online vs. Offline play. In my opinion, AAA, SAS and HSFX all need to really rethink where everything is going. SAS is where mostly offline guys go because of some of the mods they offer and AAA has "banned" those types of mods (Like opening canopies for stock aircraft or even new mod aircraft). AAA does not even offer an option for the offline players to have it, it is simply not available and taboo since it is not for the online group. SAS has different policy.

I also think that since most people are offline anyway, and SAS caters to offline players, it has helped their popularity.

Just my opinion.

[zulu64]

Why did Spits V 109s settle on Ultra Pak having used AAA Mods all this time ? I would have thought HSFX4.1 would have been the more logical choice.

[Guest]

Very interesting debate.

I myself use mods from both AAA and SAS. I use SAS buttons for one simple reason, it is compatible with almost EVERY mod. For me at least (and I am guessing for many others too) it is not a matter of correct FM or DM, but using SAS buttons I can fly with the most mods and I am the most up to date.



I cannot say I have more allegiance to one site over another. I think most people started using SAS buttons for two reasons.

(1) AAA stopped making any buttons updates
(2) SAS buttons is most up to date (almost on a weekly or even daily basis)

I think that if AAA would start making new up to date Aircraft installers more people would use AAA buttons as in the past.

the days I have been saying this, I created a topic for this.
I opened a vote, and most believe that the AAA should launch new BUTTONS.
Unfortunately, none responded to our request.
Previously, the AAA launched new things every day, but they started fighting.
And today, something rarely appears in the new AAA.
Look at the CK for example, if everyone was working on it, we'd be flying WWI.
But it seems that lately, these brilliant minds.
Lose more time fighting in the forum that doing new things.
This is unfortunate.

http://allaircraftsimulations.com/forum/...hp?t=24416


S! Scharnhorst1943




In this war there are not winners, we all lose.


would be possible for someone to sign the surrender?


and celebrate the victory of unification!!!