[Storebror]

If F-15 is the best world fighter, undefeated by none, why spend a lot of money developping F-22?

That's pretty simple:
It's the fear of people from outer mongolia to develop something which greatly outclasses the F-15.
Rumors are that they've had those plans in 45 already, maybe stolen from the germans (or just downloaded them from an argentine website).

Best regards - Mike

[ojcar]

You have missed my point. If a nation with an (until now) invincible airplane and with air superiority over any potential enemy can develop a new fighter in peace time (more or less, forget Iraq and Afghanistan, because no air to air fighting there), why not Germany could develop new planes?
I think Germans had the edge in jets at that time, but they were early jets, and they had many bugs. They were trying to improve things, because all jets (Allied and Axis) were far from perfect, and they were desperate searching the

[Thee_oddball]

If F-15 is the best world fighter, undefeated by none, why spend a lot of money developping F-22?

That's pretty simple:
It's the fear of people from outer mongolia to develop something which greatly outclasses the F-15.
Rumors are that they've had those plans in 45 already, maybe stolen from the germans (or just downloaded them from an argentine website).

Best regards - Mike

sarcasm doesn't suit you Storebror...and i think you missed the whole point of the Mongolia analogy (possibility vs impossibility)....

[ACE-OF-ACES]

So what part of "Now this is the point where you and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree" did you not understand?

you don't try to prove your point with statements of which half you didn't even bother todo research on and then offer a truce...you should have offered that first .

you want to agree to disagree we can do that..

The point your missing here is you belive what you belive based on what you know

And I belive what I belive based on what I know

Nothing you posted I would consider proof and Im sure you will say the same of what I posted

Hence my statement that we will just have to agree to disagree

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Not it's not! My previous post was directed at you, not Thee_oddball - you're presenting a false dilemma, ACE. There is no reason that Axis jet technology could not be far more advanced than Allied and still not require further development.

Agreed

I allready covered that allready where I said

German Engineers
Hey.. we are 5 years ahead of the allied with our current Jets

But even with that edge it looks like we are going to loose the war in 5 weeks

Time to start designing even better jets!!

But that makes the Germans look very silly

Thus I didn't put it down as option 3

Thus the only options that don't make the Germans look silly is the 2 I provided

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Sorry but I like cakes ...when new plane enters service,it's successor is already on the drawing boards...that's how it was and I'll stick with that .

Not necessarily

But assuming their were

That tells me the Germans knew thier edge over the allieds was not as big as some here what to belive

And if Tank and Messerschmitt make some improvements or a completely new better design, they should just ignore it?

Improvements with current designs I can understand

But when you look at all the doodles they have over at Luft46

I hope no one really thinks they were capable of completing 1 of them let alone all of them

What with two armies knocking on your front and back door

But I am sure it make them feel better dreaming about them l)

Ok ...so,if all that info and tech are inferior to American info and tech,why bother? Russians will make inferior planes with that....btw,you didn't prove that meteor is better than 262 ...

I never said it was inferior

All I ever did say is it was not as advanced as some what to belive

That and it falls under the guise of better safe than sorry

They didn't know for sure just how close the gap actully was until they went in there and got the info

While at the same time dening the russians the info

Pretty standard spoils of war stuff really

[ACE-OF-ACES]

[quote="ojcar"]You have missed my point. If a nation with an (until now) invincible airplane and with air superiority over any potential enemy can develop a new fighter in peace time (more or less, forget Iraq and Afghanistan, because no air to air fighting there), why not Germany could develop new planes?
I think Germans had the edge in jets at that time, but they were early jets, and they had many bugs. They were trying to improve things, because all jets (Allied and Axis) were far from perfect, and they were desperate searching the

[ojcar]

Replacement time is different in peace and war, and replacing a plane with virtually no enemies is very expensive (there are Phantoms and MiG-21 in some air forces, because the money, go figure).

Nevertheless, as I said, Germans had the edge over allies at that time, but their planes were far from perfect, very, very far. They weren't the flying wonders some people think. And they were running out of pilots. The He-162 was intended as a plane for Hitler Jugend pilots (time training more or less the same of Japanese Kamikazes)

Some people think more time is better for Germany, but I think more time is better to allies. They had all the advantages to drastically improve their planes, and more important, to launch mass production (and make some A-bombs).

[max_thehitman]

This topic seems very interesting.
I am not an expert but I too have numerous books on the matter, and have been researching about it for many years, specially dealing with the so-called

[Thee_oddball]

Was it the Mig-9, or the Me-262?

Nice post Max Mig9 vs 262? i am going with Mig in that fight, 162 vs Mig would be a better match up

S!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Replacement time is different in peace and war, and replacing a plane with virtually no enemies is very expensive (there are Phantoms and MiG-21 in some air forces, because the money, go figure).

Nevertheless, as I said, Germans had the edge over allies at that time, but their planes were far from perfect, very, very far. They weren't the flying wonders some people think. And they were running out of pilots. The He-162 was intended as a plane for Hitler Jugend pilots (time training more or less the same of Japanese Kamikazes)

Some people think more time is better for Germany, but I think more time is better to allies. They had all the advantages to drastically improve their planes, and more important, to launch mass production (and make some A-bombs).

Agreed 100%

[Storebror]

You have missed my point.

You can bet your bottom dollar that I didn't attempt to hit it :wink:

Germany could have better jets.....on paper, because poor materials, fuel and pilots. No quality control if you have lost a hugue lot of specialist workers.
(...)
On the other hand, more time is better to the allies to develop P-80, Meteor, P-84, etc. They had time, resources, quality workers, quality fuel, more experienced pilots (how many alive aces had Germany at this time? How many novices?).
At this time, Germany could have their super-weapons (plagued with bugs) against the allied no-so-super-weapons with much lesser bugs

I'd like to stress that.
One thing which falls short a little during this discussion in my opinion is the ideology which was driving the german inventions.
Compared to the allies, germany always developed a lot more trailblazing technologies and devices, not just aircrafts but also other stuff, during WW2.
Why didn't this turn out successfully?
As a matter of fact, it's not just technological superiority that rules the outcome of the war, it's also the production management and your resources.
The allied were clever enough not to diversify their technological resources like the germans did.
Looking at WW2's aerial warfare, the US usually had 2 types of aircraft for each task, sometimes more, pretty seldom less.
The british were pretty close on the same track.
Compared to that, germany had dozens of different aircrafts for a set of tasks, while some others were left with only one aircraft type to fulfill that task or even none at all (e.g. long range bombing).
Development plans weren't any better.
Looking at the jet fighter developments, the germans might have been ahead a little technology-wise, but the poor production management (besides the resources problem, but that's not part of this "what if" thinking as I learned through reading this thread) wouldn't ever allow them to successfully establishing a mass-production of an effective set of jet fighters for use by the Luftwaffe.
The allies again did bundle their resources and pushed forward only a set of projects which could have held the edge against possible german jets.
The US were ready with their plans to deploy P-80/84 jets if neccessary, the british pipeline did hold both Meteor and Vampire.
None of these four would have outclassed the latest german developments, but that's not neccessary if there are always 10 allied fighters for each german one.

To cut the long story short: The allies might not have had or planned the best fighters of the world, but they did concentrate on the neccessary stuff.
The germans might have had the top-of-the-crop fighters, but they weren't able to get them into service in any reasonable numbers since they simply dissipated their energy on too many "promising" projects at the same time.

Best regards - Mike

[ojcar]

Agree 100% Storebror. The pilots problem is very important too. Super sofisticated weapons plagued by bugs piloted by 15 years old 5 hours of flight experienced pilots (and a dozen aces or so)? Remember the Marianas Turkey shoot?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Also agree with Storebror's assesment

[Aurora]

[quote="max_thehitman"]This topic seems very interesting.
I am not an expert but I too have numerous books on the matter, and have been researching about it for many years, specially dealing with the so-called