[asheshouse]

........ you are arguing your cause blindly and without proper credentials .......

..........scum ...........

....... all you can do there is fall blindly and obediently...........

All phrases introduced to the discussion by Beowolff.
Your style of discussion, when I have seen it here and elsewhere, is aggressive and confrontational.
Introducing words like "scum" adds nothing to the argument, except to raise tempers.

Sure, I don't know all of the facts.
I haven't read all the threads at SAS and FM.
... but I have seen enough to form an opinion.

I place a lot of credence on a statement made in the past by SAS~Le0ne

We are not saying that the fault lies entirely on one side, we have made some mistakes and we fully acknowledge that fact. SAS has always been a vibrant and innovative site, run by real people with real lives. We are not perfect and will never claim to be.

What I see at SAS is a site which just gets on with its own business and does not regularly derogate other sites. I am aware that a small number of mods posted at SAS are claimed to be "pirated". However it appears to me that all of these are examples of work which has involved a number of contributors, and I guess open collaboration which occurred before the big bust up. One of the contributors, FM, now wants to unilaterally dictate how and where the mod is released. The work on the Seafire Pack for example is not solely the work of Ton. The original model, I assume, is based on the Seafire from the stock game, subsequently modified in various stages by various people. I don't seek to diminish Ton's major contribution, but he has not been the only contributor. This is the opinion I have formed from reading a wide range of threads. I am not blindly following any other parties line.

If anything I have said is factually wrong I will be pleased to be corrected, but preferably factually corrected, not with opinion and conjecture.

Ashe

[Deutschmark]

Hi Ash, why do you keep on going back to the spit mod?, this has already been determined, most everything here as to do with the way SAS admin go about treating members over there, but you seem to not what to look at that, why?

And then there is this one that I think people should really take a good HARD look at;

add a thousand or more instances to it, many of them MUCH MUCH MUCH worse. toss in Falcon's and GJE's BREAK-IN into the Free Modding site (that's right, even Anto knows and admits to that)

Deutschmark

[OC-Tiger]

but I have seen enough to form an opinion.
What I see at SAS is a site which just gets on with its own business and does not regularly derogate other sites.

Really?! ... interesting.

Then this whole discussion is moot isn't it? ... you've had your exchange with the relevant players from the opposing camp(s) ... found that you dislike aspects of character & or in the main disagree or at the very least, dismiss the information presented to you as generally unimportant.

An interesting exchange ... perhaps it's time then to just get on with the business of IL-2 from where-ever it is you are happiest to do so.

[asheshouse]

I was responding to the post above.

Storebror was criticised for posting mildly abusive comment. I speculated on his reason for doing so and suggested that he might have been responding to the long and extremely offensive post in FM by Beowolff

Storebought...reduced to S.neak A.nd S.teal?

Beo's response to that was that his post was ok because it was true.
Ton then commented again on the Seafire post

.... so in light of that maybe it is worth considering why SAS do not regard the Seafire Pack as "pirating". .... because it was a joint project with many contributors. --- Am I wrong?

If anything I have said is factually wrong I will be pleased to be corrected, but preferably factually corrected, not with opinion and conjecture.

Ashe

[Deutschmark]

...Am I wrong?
Ashe

No your not wrong at that and I even said to Ton and all, that if your going to do work on a stock game plane then don't be upset when other mod sites take it do a little work to it and reposts it, but I will say this when this is done the ones doing it should not make light of anyone else's work that has been done before theirs with the credits like was done in Ton's case with the spit.

But here again Ash the body of this thread is about the way SAS admin go about treating members over there and banning people for just ( like Ice said ) posting a photo a few times...

Deutschmark

[ton414]

asheshouse, you manipulate and distort the truth.
I did not know that you were a follower so fanatic of SAS.

And by what I'm reading here, you know perfectly all that is done in SAS.

Yes in my Seafire XVII some parts are based on stock plane that I modified, and many other parts are completely new, besides new code, textures, new objets etc. I put everything in detail in the credits as always.
For example the new new tailhook mechanism was very difficult to do.

But the credits that put Storebror in the seafire pack are totally incorrect.
The credits were made deliberately bad, to attack me and Free Modding and steal my work.

Perhaps, that a plane or any mod, not done entirely from scratch, does that justify the theft?...

All the hard and long work made by me was stolen with impunity.
And now you are here, justifying the theft.

Even Storebror put this in all files:



This picture is very enlightening: everything belongs to SAS, that's the only policy of sas: the monopoly of IL-2 modding.

Any work done by any independent modder, will be stolen by SAS.

And you asheshouse is here to justify this.

But as I say, you manipulate and distort the truth, and you do not stop repeating: "the words of Beo are aggressive".
Not man, your words are truly aggressive, because they are directed to distort reality by deception.

A reality that you know perfectly, but you try to hide it here by all means.

Also seems very paradoxical, you only talk about Beo's aggressive words, but you forget all attacks, insults, aggressions, etc., that GJE52, Storebror, Bombsaway, Leone, etc., have made against Free Modding.

You only see what you want to see, and to what you are not interested, you close your eyes...

Personally I think that it is not worth continue discussion with you, it is a waste of time, you are not here to reach some kind of truth, you are here to justify the unlawful acts from SAS, trying to confuse to IL-2 community.

[Lonestar]

I'm only a campaign creator but I have the same problem! Since I use so many mods for a campaign, the list of people would be endless and I would probably still forget one!
You should first start with the original IL-2 creators and then continue with these people (and that would only be the small beginning):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33000

I personally have set me on a closing sentence without a modified campaign would not be possible!
Maybe all mods should have a similar conclusion sentence, so you have at least shown the good will . . .

Many thanks to . . . . . and all Modders in alphabetical order from:
Allaircraftsimulations/freeil2modding/Special Aircraft Service for their mods

. . . and I suspect I have still forgotten someone!

[Deutschmark]

Hi Lonestar, in your case you are using so many mods made by so many different people that to make a full list would be a nightmare, that's not the case thought when you are talking about one variant of one plane the list is much much smaller and that is not even the point here with the spit, that variant of seaspit would not be around as good as it is if it had not been for Ton's work but yet they / SAS Storebror chouse to make it seem like most was done from SAS and made very little mention of Ton's BIG part of it.

But here again as I been saying right along the body of this thread is about the way SAS admin go about treating members over there and banning people for just the littlest thing.

Deutschmark

[Lonestar]

In this case, you're probably right, Deutschmark! (Have no idea of creating new aircraft!)
Personally, I can understand it! Had a similar thing years ago, as I have worked months on a project and suddenly someone had deleted a part of my work without asking!
But what I always keep telling myself! You get also overall a lot of work by many people back! Probably more work than you invest in your own work!
So, I try to keep my own ego down! (Ton, just smile! :wink: )

No idea, what is expired in the banned thing!
I hope it was not the last words of SAS for the people who have been banned! (diplomatically said! :wink: )

[Beowolff]

yes it is quite useless to discuss anything with someone that is ONLY worried about people's 'style' of writing. (Beo shakes head sadly.) a style of writing has nothing to do with valid points made or truths uttered. rather taking exception (in endless repetition) of a 'style' of writing or talking is merely a DODGE to try and make light of and/or circumvent such valid points and truths. in other words if by pulling attention AWAY from what is said by repeatedly concentrating upon a speaker's delivery style...you are 'attempting to misdirect and focus on trivial things of no certain meaning or consequence. such is...spin-doctoring. a sort of 'coin trick' like a magician might make when misdirecting his audience from the fact that he didn't really make the coin disappear but rather slid it up his sleeve or into the other hand.

such has always been the backbone of the SAS true believers mantra.

and yes, many people...in particular people that have done me wrong and or hate me (the bulk of the SAS administration and their lackeys) for whatever reason often say that 'my' particular style of writing is aggressive... well, so what? possibly my style is aggressive because THEY disagree with my words and rather than counter them (because they cannot) seek merely to Spin-Doctor what I say into something I did NOT say? yes, that is quite possible and in fact is true.

everyone reading this will see that as ton says... Ashe here doesn't seek to address any 'real' issue or issues brought up by everyone else, merely his responses are ALWAYS geared to haggle on 'small' and unimportant points... a slight of hand, a misdirection... where again as ton and DM point out ends up being some sort of 'justification' for the thousands of SAS wrong-doings.

in other words 'let's not deal with the fact that the SAS did (and continue to do) those bad things... instead, let us concentrate on 'why' they did them and 'what' gave them the right to do them ...which will ALWAYS be something along the line of, 'It was Beowolff's fault!'

d'oh! :-?

it should be mind-boggling to any upright person that any 'one' man (such as I) can be so detrimental and destructive to an entire SITE full of admins such as over at the SAS. :-?



and yet when they are attacking DM and stealing DM's work or banning him...then suddenly it is DM's fault.

or when they are slighting/abusing/stealing from ton it must be 'tons' fault.

and Texx's fault. and dino's fault. and Ice-Eagle's fault. and so on down the line to near infinity.

always always when they (the SAS) do bad things...it is SOMEONE ELSE'S fault "WHY" they had to do it.

yes, it always boils down to that whenever the SAS screw us over as they constantly do... then ALWAYS somehow 'we had it coming.'

and somehow that outlook always gives the SAS the right to do even more to us. the fact that we respond to THEIR aggression and wrongs and do not let them walk all over us is even wrong and evidently gives 'them' even MORE rights to continue to do even more wrongs to us. any sane and 'thinking' man or men can see this for what it really is and understand the fundamental 'wrongness' of that sort of justification.

all of us here and at the FM site understand friendship and loyalty, and we understand pride too. and yet NONE of us are blindly obedient to the point that our friendship and loyalty to each other takes on the girth of overpowering/unswerving adherence and obedience to leaders and the doctrine of leaders that would have us make-up justifications for things done wrong to other people. and that is the main underlying difference between the AAS, FM...and the SAS. and no doubt has been the main 'problem' all along. they DEMAND blind obedience to their silly-ass cult. we, on the other hand 'ask' only for friendship, fairness and civility as ALL men should expect from their fellows.

I guess it is like trying to mix oil and water... our two viewpoints just don't work.

I too was once under the 'swoon' of the SAS doctrine, and I for one am ashamed that I allowed them to twist my viewpoint and alter my outlook to the point of where, like any mean-assed thirteen year old I made fun of people that I did not know, mistreated people I had no business mistreating, and sat about in the treehouse talking DOWN about others and agreeing to fundamentally WRONG strategies. the actual breaking point for me was when I 'watched' from the sidelines while they (CirX and others) stole DM's WWI planes and released them under an alias name... and though finally I spoke out in the treehouse against it, I waited too late and did not act as promptly as I knew I 'should' have acted. from that point on I could no longer 'JUSTIFY' the doctrine of the SAS. and from that point on I was searching for a way OUT of that black mess. ---thus the creation of the Free Modding site and my sincerest apology to DM.

perhaps you'll one day reach such a point, Ashe where you can't look at your own self in the mirror without cringing... and perhaps 'then' you'll see that a personal change is for you too.

but until then, don't pretend to debate or discuss when all the while you are (as ton so truly said) merely JUSTIFYING.

[Vpmedia]

[Ice_Eagle]

I won't even get into how MY engine ended up into the Albatros.. Suffice to say, ANTO personally pm'ed me to send it to Gerax which somehow...
(commercial break)

Not my template, but the skin is 100% mine):

Jay Overcash's P-40K-5:




(we now return to your regularly program)
...ended up in maxthehitmans template. It was changed here and there, but I know my work. At the time I didn't give a sh!t.. but now I do, go figure.

[Deutschmark]

Nice P-40 Ice, you going to be putting the skin up for download?

Deutschmark

[Ice_Eagle]

Sure can.

*EDIT:

dONE:

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=34134&p=367905#p367905

[HotelAlpha200]

Ice, great job! I really enjoy your skins.