[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

Hello,

I have spent many hours trying to create some mods, without any help or support from the community. With the banning of Hellzone there is now no one who will assist people in working with the Java. So, I am closing down shop.

Projects worth pursuing:
- In real life RS-82 and RS-132 rockets were estimated at 16 Mils dispersion and 60lb rockets were estimated at 8 Mils. It should be possible to add such dispersion to all rockets in game. This would increase realism greatly in ground attack and lead to more realistic tactics (rockets become a stand off bombardment weapon instead of a point blank tank killing laser)

- In order to increase durability of bridges and trains there needs to be changes made in the class files. This is highly advisable as in real life it often took many direct hits to properly make a bridge unrepairable (as opposed to a near miss by a 110lb bomb). They were difficult targets.

Note: In Il-2 there are several types of bridges that would ideally be modeled differently
- stone bridges (vulnerable to blast)
- wood bridges (vulnerable to fire and small bombs but resistant to blast)
- iron/steel girder bridges (barely effected by blast and capable of still standing even when holes have been punched through their deck).

Minor notes:
- I have a patch that lowers the rate of acceleration for trains. Mrjolly, let me know if you want a copy. It may also be possible to lower sinking rates for ships etc.
- I also strongly suggest more experimentation with the loadouts. I managed to swap weapons from hardpoint to hardpoint and it might be possible to combine this with modification of hardpoint names to do things like allow each torpedo to be released separately in the He-111 (this is realistic). Check out the Do-335 to see how sequential release can be kludged.
- I still think the TRD-1 should be lowered to 500kg thrust. Check the *.pdf manual if you want evidence!

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

Appendix A:
Three values which are probably stored in the class files and shared by types of objects:
- ProbabDeathWhenShot (for the first 5 shots that penetrate)
- IgnoreTNT
- KillTNT

Values in the vehicle table:
- Type (vehicle type/table - there is a different pair of tables for each type )
- Panzer (armour thickness to use in penetration table)
- PanzerType (resistance to bomb/HE blasts in blast table?)

I have managed to make trains invulnerable to 7.62mm/7.92mm/30 cal weapons. I haven't been able to upgrade their armour class from that of an armoured car to that of a light tank (and thus they are still killed by just 5-10 rounds from a 12.7mm/50 cal weapon).

I'm also having trouble making sense of the tables. They seem to be different for each kind of vehicle. There is a thickness (panzer) value on the lefthand side (y-axis). I think the x-axis is the caliber (or more accurately weapon energy). This would make the values inside the table the amount of energy (damage) that manages to penetrate the armour.

Appendix B:

First, it is important to realise that train cars consist of multiple parts: You can set fire to a freight wagon but if it has a steel frame and bogies the only effect will be to destroy the top part of the car.

For this reason trains were often hard to destroy, with even P-47 pilots trying to kill the drivers in the cab. At the same time a train can be derailed by a very small piece of debris.

The nice thing is that we can model both hit points and, using the armour values, resistance to small caliber weapons separately. So we can, for instance, make a flat car very vulnerable to 20mm and almost immune to light machine guns and at the same time have a passenger car be more vulnerable to light machine guns but still take as many 20mm hits as the flat car.

--------

I can get real figures for some of these cars if you want (including for the actual makes modeled in Il-2), but it will take time. Below are my guesses off the top of my head. They assume two to four weapons of the caliber and it is important to remember that 3 seconds is a long time in combat.

Engine
- The boiler consists of curved sheet steel often exceeding half an inch (>120mm) in thickness. It is thus impervious to anything but powerful armour penetrating cannons. In addition locomotives has an extremely heavy frame.
- damage may cause engine to loose power and can kill the cab crew (train drivers) but the boiler is unlikely to explode even after multiple 20mm runs (12-26 seconds) essentially requiring the use of bombs or rockets or multiple strafing runs by several cannon equipped aircraft.

Tender
- short, relatively heavy, often with metal sides it should be resistant to 7.62mm rounds but vulnerable to a protracted burst of 12.7mm (8 seconds) or 20mm cannons (2-3 seconds)

passenger cars
- designed to be light weight with thin sides and a weak frame. A moderate run with 7.62mm (>6 seconds) should light it on fire, alternatively a short run of 12.7mm (3 seconds) or a few quick hits from a 20mm (1-1.5 seconds).

box cars
- the cargo on top can be lit on fire but the box will take a while to be destroyed. The frame is of medium strength. :. A long run for 7.62mm (>8 seconds), slightly resistant to 12.7mm fire (>4 seconds) and even 20mm fire (>1.5-2.5 seconds).

ammo cars
- like box cars but with explosive contents :. vulnerable to extended (>3 seconds) impacts by 7.62mm, a short burst from 12.7mm machine guns (2 seconds?) or a very short burst (>0.75 seconds) from HE cannon.

fuel cars
- these have contents under pressure and thus tend to be durable, although once punctured they are flammable. Virtually immune to 7.62mm (>12-18 seconds), extended rung by 12.7mm (>4 seconds) or a moderate run by 20mm (2-3 seconds)

flat cars (cargo)
- flat cars are just the frame :. no effect without damaging the frames badly and little debris to cause a derailing. So lets say a long run (8-10 seconds) for the 7.62mm, an extended run for 12.7 (5 seconds) and a short run for 20mm (1.5-3 seconds)

several variations exist:
- (cargo and tanks) might break more easily due to asymmetric load? Alternatively it might have a heavier duty frame.
- (trucks) the trucks could catch fire, otherwise no differences.
- (AA cars) like a flatcar but with a gun crew, the guns would be durable but the crew could be easily killed (and not as easily replaced as with static AA guns)

Ideally some cars should catch fire long before the train stops moving (not sure if this is possible).

[spud]

I'd love to see the sinking slowed down. Sorry you can't continue, I've been very interested, but I am totally incapable of helping with the class files, I'm completely out of my depth.



tater

[fly_zo]

I see no reason why you shouldn't continue with your work ( which is great IMHO) just don't discuss it publicly ( how to ....) cos of AAA policy of not reveal info ( FM/DM changes)

...but it is up to you ...


regards,

Z

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

It is a practical decision at this point:
I have edited a dozen or so flight simulators, released several mods and been part of a professional level mod team. But I don't know java well enough for this level of work.

I can't easily make sense of byte code (associating float values with their descriptors) or make extensive edits in that format. I have managed to decompile classes but so far I have been unable to recompile them.

The mods I was aiming for are relatively small and I really hope that someone will work on them. Its just a little bit out of my league. But, it simply isn't worth my investing more hours if no help or tutorials are forthcoming. I think a lot of others have or are going to make this decision.

I know a number of people were waiting to see if anything would come of these mods and I thought I should give people notice and post what progress I had made so others have the option of trying.

(btw. train.class and ships.class have speed, live/dead behaviours and times. Cargo.class and Bridgesegment.class contains TNT values which are believed to be associated with durability)

I see no reason why you shouldn't continue with your work ( which is great IMHO) just don't discuss it publicly ( how to ....) cos of AAA policy of not reveal info ( FM/DM changes)

...but it is up to you ...


regards,

Z

Thank you,

These files are in a different format and stored in a different location than the java classes so I don't see a problem (there are other cheats you could produce in the classes).

(I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't release or reveal any aircraft FM/DM information until after a good anti-cheat protection system is in place - Oleg is apparently trying to help the 3rd party develop one. Right now, any experienced programmer could already easily make a subtle hack that would give them an edge, but I agree that it makes sense to reduce the spread of this knowledge. )

There are actually a number of obvious complaints that I will take the risk of voicing:
- Mods which aren't consider important are sat on without explanation instead of being uploaded. This can be a very frustrating experience (although the beta mods forum helped alleviate this)
- There still isn't a clear policy about what is allowed (eg. I could possibly be banned if I posted a mod that gave all air-to-ground rockets dispersion - not that I have achieved that yet)
- No progress is made by the inner circle in areas that they deem to be unimportant and at the same time there is no assistance or advice given to even experienced modders who show an interest in helping
- The techniques required to work in the java do not easily yield themselves to cheating. I honestly doubt that the real motivation for not providing assistance has anything to do with this.

I hope that the AAA administration doesn't take the above criticism to harshly. I am just being honest and stating the obvious (and I always thought there should be honesty among "fire stealers"). At any rate, feedback is necessary for governance.

Generic anti-delete curse: I predict that if anything should happen to me as a result of this nothing significant will remain of this community in sixteen months time!

[GentleKiller]

i am a little lazy to read all this, but, it is kinda sad that you are stopping these woenderful projects

[Lewicide]

Huh?

What happened to Hellzone, and why?

[fly_zo]

There are actually a number of obvious complaints that I will take the risk of voicing:
- Mods which aren't consider important are sat on without explanation instead of being uploaded. This can be a very frustrating experience (although the beta mods forum helped alleviate this)
- There still isn't a clear policy about what is allowed (eg. I could possibly be banned if I posted a mod that gave all air-to-ground rockets dispersion - not that I have achieved that yet)
- No progress is made by the inner circle in areas that they deem to be unimportant and at the same time there is no assistance or advice given to even experienced modders who show an interest in helping
- The techniques required to work in the java do not easily yield themselves to cheating. I honestly doubt that the real motivation for not providing assistance has anything to do with this.

I hope that the AAA administration doesn't take the above criticism to harshly. I am just being honest and stating the obvious (and I always thought there should be honesty among "fire stealers"). At any rate, feedback is necessary for governance.

Generic anti-delete curse: I predict that if anything should happen to me as a result of this nothing significant will remain of this community in sixteen months time!

ok, please bear in mind that this community is just six months old ( modding stage) , it is still in develop stage so please be patient if mods send to jolly has been unanswered or AAA policy isn't clarified jet.....

Inner circle as you have putted , are just few guys who:

1. make mods ( see how many planes has become flyable in just few months)
2. run /moderate and trying to improve forum itself ( implementing upload system is latest task ...)
3. tests and upload each and every mod this community make ( do you know how many mods guys get daily ... to test them make installers .....)


why not send a PM to any of them and ask for clarification for every issue you have with AAA?


regards,
Z

[High Plains Drifter]

Don't give up on us yet partner. Your work is really appreciated by many many here.

[ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP]

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate the efforts of the team here. I also recognise that QTim, SG2_Wasy, Mrjolly and the others are all busy and don't necessarily have the time to train people.

I just wanted to reflect the reality that, despite queries in the forums and a few PMs, it is hard to get any advice regarding modding and it is almost as hard to get a mod published. There is a reason why people get discouraged.

There was only one person who provided technical support for new people trying to help out with the modding effort and he is gone now. So, the situation isn't really feasible.

I don't have a vendetta here. I just meant to close up and post my development notes.

S! and good luck to everyone.

[Guest]

Don't quit, we need you. I'm just ignorant. sorry.

[lowfighter]

Don't quit M8!

[FANATIC MODDER]

ROSOBORONEXPORTCORP, I think your job here is greatly appreciated.It's just that not all people have the knowledge to go into modding. I learned myself a few things here in AAA in this month and half or so but unfortunately I don't have the skills to do what you need to...I hope I could.

[FC]

Hello,

I have spent many hours trying to create some mods, without any help or support from the community. With the banning of Hellzone there is now no one who will assist people in working with the Java. So, I am closing down shop.

You expect to much, simply, there is no that many Java programmers here. Maybe one or two guys who know what they are doing but the rest are just improvising.

For example I made some extremely simple programs ~20years ago in Basic :lol: and haven't program anything since. I saw Java first time in my life few months ago and I'm able to make mods now.

All you need to do is to improvise and use your brain. Remember Japan after the WWII, they didn't have anything and they didn't try to invent the wheel again. They copied and that's what I do, I find something that works and copy the solution. You should do the same.

Hellzone told you what to use so you have everything you need. Don't give up.

FC

[GentleKiller]

wait, did hellzone get banned?

i thought that he was a guest. :? :?