19.01.2010, 04:15
You're right. The two aircrafts doesn't reflect the reality performance wise. That's why I wrote an e-mail to PeterD about it not so long ago. It was about the performances of the two aircraft in UI 1.2, and as far as I can see, the situation is a little better in UP 2.0. Still no way near where it should be though. Also the absence of G-Suit simulation makes them kind of useless in a high-speed dogfight... Anyways here's the e-mail and the response (I hope PeterD will have no objections to this publication):
2009/11/23
"Hi there,
First I would like to say that these are simply the best aircrafts for the IL-2. None of the others are neither as beatiful nor as detailed, and I do love them, good job.
But, I have realized something which bothered me a great deal, that is the performance comparison between those two aircraft. I believe they're the complete opposite. Historically speaking beacuse of the two nations doctrine of aircraft design, Soviet planes were almost always the most simple and easy-maintainable, and always the most nimble one. Whereas the Americans put an emphasis on speed and power and reliability and survivability, as a consequence, their aircrafts were heavier and better protected, but faster and more powerful. The same goes for Mig-15 and F-86 as well. Mig-15 was nimble, could turn really good(compared to jet aircrafts) and climb really good, because it was lighter, but the F-86 was faster and tougher. Although the F model got close to Migs turn and climb performance, with its larger wings, more powerful and more reliable engine and with its "flying-wing", Mig was still the better one on those areas. Whereas in the game we see the opposite, now please don't see this as a complaint letter from an ungreatful sponger. I simply want what is best, to be even better and realistic. I have flown many sorties with both of these planes against one another, and every time I flew with F-86 I found myself watching the Mig just fly away, turn, come back and do whatever it wishes to do on me. I mean the difference couldn't be any obvious regarding speed. Mig also climbs better and I have nothing to say to that, as it was true. But turn-rate wise, although slightly, the F-86 is better. Which was not the case whatsoever, the last thing the F-86 pilots wanted to do was to get dragged into a turn fight, because they knew they would lose it instantly. Instead they used their better tactics (which isn't simulatable in-game)and their obvious speed superiority (kinda like the WWII era against Japanese).
I hope you will give it at least some consideration to do more research and maybe fix the issue in the alpha version. Yes, I know it's a beta!
And thank you, for doing the most detailed aircraft in the game, and I mean that (seriously, my jaw dropped when I saw the machine guns and the engine AND the bullet holes when they jumped on me. Does the airframe really actually deform in a way that you can see the bullets entry angle?!?!?!).
Just think about it,
and keep up the good work,
_VR_Aristo "
2009/11/23
"Hello _VR_Aristo,
Thanks for the compliments, I am glad you like the aircrafts!
About the differences in performance, you are right: the MiG-15 as it is right now (used with Unifed Installer 1.2) is currently too good in some areas. I wasn't involved in the Flight Model development of the Sabre nor the MiG-15, however they have been reviewed, tweaked, and improved considerably for the next version.
This is what the author of the soon-to-come Flightmodels had to say about them:
Update - Quite Lengthy But Be Patient, in response to other posts in another area regarding flaws
Firstly Hello, I have been dying to post this update for some time now, talk of how accurate the FMs are not entirely true due to recent findings, fist note
Super Sonic fighters are fighters that fly in level flight above Mach 1.2, The F-86 us not really a true supersonic fighter, It spends most of its time in transonic flight and cannot reach Mach 1 under its own engine power only in a shallow dive and also easier at higher alts doing the same.
The speed of sound or Mach as you know is different at all altitudes and is measured in TAS, therefore you will appear to reach mach at lower IAS speeds at higher alt. the use of TAS now is important as is the need for a mach gauge. Descriptions of pilot reports can be mirrored in 1:1 human combat.
The original FMs that you guys are flying that have been reported as realistic, at the time of creation they appeared so however, last month I was able to load these aircraft into IL-2 Compare and I noticed straight away the issues. The original FMs were done mainly by Hunin and additional help my self with detail and facts. Testing, pre release FM and other tweaks currently in the FMs Howlin, this was a long time ago to think back and I am certain that each of us had a fair share of work into the original FM (no offense intended at any one mentioned or not mentioned). Since then I have spent many hours in very little days correcting these. I have extensively researched these and have built a very large library of details. The FMs have currently been completely redone by myself with testing by certain friends. My notes on the current FMs and problems are:
o Currently the climb rate of MiG-15Bis is closer to that of a MiG-17 (65m/s), This should be 50m/s based on the earlier 1949 April/July variant, this has been corrected however it is 53.5m/s close enough, I will explain why this compromise later.
o The roll rate of the MiG-15Bis out rolled that of the F-86, this is wrong. The F-86 should roll at 180 deg/s or 2 seconds for a complete roll at all speeds except high speed where it drops to around 3 seconds. The Mig-15 and Bis should roll at 90 degrees a second or roll in 4 seconds, at high speed the MiG-15 would lock up completely however the Bis had boosted ailerons and could manage 6 seconds, the Sabre now out rolls the MiG twice as fast at all speeds, Correct
o The Sabre if rolled continuously for too long (many fast rolls) at low speed will eventually start effects similar to that experienced on the MiG-21 "Auto Rotation", this does not mean it will auto roll, it means it will go into a weird barrel roll where the nose eventually pitches up into the centre causing an easily recoverable flat spin, this was not deliberate but a by product of reaching the limits of FMs which are designed for props, the game has limits with its FM I am not sure it can handle modern complex supersonic fighter flight models, as the performance curve cannot be as accurately defined as say a P-51 Prop, these FMs will do ok with in the current limits, any more and you would have to compromise on areas.
o The Sabre can and does out dive a MiG-15Bis however the MiG-15Bis will out dive the F-86 in an initial dive but the F-86 will accelerate past the MiG and has higher speed tolerance in a dive, it will not brake apart so easily, Correct
o The Sabre A-5 now climbs at its correct climb speed at 38ms, the F-86F-25E (Early Slatted bigger engine) and F-86F-25L (Late with the '6-3' which was retro fitted to earlier models to give it a fixed slat and larger root and wing area) 47m/s
o Power to weight ratio is very important now that you are flying jets just as much as you would think the turn is and climb, it tells you how well you accelerate and recover from a turn fight to gain advantage. The MiG-15Bis is more closer to RL than the late Sabres, it has a Power to Weight Ratio of 0.53 isntead of 0.54. Due to the limits of the FM with jets, (I cannot further discuss publicly). Certain things have had to be increased, such as weight, if I was to add any more weight to the MiG-15Bis it would affect the dive and other natural advantages the Sabre has over the MiG-15Bis.
o The Sabre A-5 has a power to weight ratio that is 37.5 same as real life and is quite accurate in performance
o The F-25 due to similar limitations related to the MiG-15Bis it has been refined and has a slightly higher thrust to weight and correct climb, this does even the odds in the climb much closer.
o The current original MiG-15Bis and Sabre A-5 fly far too fast at all heights, accelerate too well and black out easily. Corrected
o Peter D after a discussion between each other and extensive research on the high transonic speed effects that each plane suffered from, has created some very nice and interesting effects that are close to what the reports have said. The F-86A-5 like the MiG-15 locks up at high speed at high altitude this is due to it having a regular tail, roll was unaffected. The aircraft now loses not all but much control in pitch at high speed and high altitude which resulted in the tactic of USAF pilots dragging MiG pilots 25,000ft and lower, but as you get lower into the thicker air this compressibility is not such an issue and on the deck it is with out issue at all. The MiG-15Bis is much more nimble higher up and the Sabre A-5 can only fight it at low to mid speeds at low to mid heights, correct.
In level powered flight the F-86 will reach supersonic flight especially at higher altitudes. This has since been corrected, The Sabre will only ever reach Mach 1 in a shallow dive and its energy retention will allow it to hold that for longer periods of time. The buffet you experience is the high transonic affects by PeterD, it does not mean you will rip a wing but you can safely fly at mach 1.1 but at 1.2 at sea level you will lose control surfaces, buffet will become much more severe at the point of max speed. The MiG-15Bis will brake apart just above mach but as said below will not be able to achieve near mach in a controlled dive at all.
The F-86F-25E and L have the flying tail or I forget the name, where the elevators can still be operated but the complete horizontal stabilizer can pitch when needed at high speed, this reduces the compressibility issues greatly giving it much better pitch control at high alt and high speed, the aircraft is still no where near as stiff or light as it is at low alt but very stable at all speeds/heights and is highly maneuverable at higher alts.
The MiG-15Bis in real life would not break apart when it hit the sound barrier it can continue diving, however what happens is there is complete loss of roll and pitch control, complete lawn dart,
2009/11/23
"Hi there,
First I would like to say that these are simply the best aircrafts for the IL-2. None of the others are neither as beatiful nor as detailed, and I do love them, good job.
But, I have realized something which bothered me a great deal, that is the performance comparison between those two aircraft. I believe they're the complete opposite. Historically speaking beacuse of the two nations doctrine of aircraft design, Soviet planes were almost always the most simple and easy-maintainable, and always the most nimble one. Whereas the Americans put an emphasis on speed and power and reliability and survivability, as a consequence, their aircrafts were heavier and better protected, but faster and more powerful. The same goes for Mig-15 and F-86 as well. Mig-15 was nimble, could turn really good(compared to jet aircrafts) and climb really good, because it was lighter, but the F-86 was faster and tougher. Although the F model got close to Migs turn and climb performance, with its larger wings, more powerful and more reliable engine and with its "flying-wing", Mig was still the better one on those areas. Whereas in the game we see the opposite, now please don't see this as a complaint letter from an ungreatful sponger. I simply want what is best, to be even better and realistic. I have flown many sorties with both of these planes against one another, and every time I flew with F-86 I found myself watching the Mig just fly away, turn, come back and do whatever it wishes to do on me. I mean the difference couldn't be any obvious regarding speed. Mig also climbs better and I have nothing to say to that, as it was true. But turn-rate wise, although slightly, the F-86 is better. Which was not the case whatsoever, the last thing the F-86 pilots wanted to do was to get dragged into a turn fight, because they knew they would lose it instantly. Instead they used their better tactics (which isn't simulatable in-game)and their obvious speed superiority (kinda like the WWII era against Japanese).
I hope you will give it at least some consideration to do more research and maybe fix the issue in the alpha version. Yes, I know it's a beta!
And thank you, for doing the most detailed aircraft in the game, and I mean that (seriously, my jaw dropped when I saw the machine guns and the engine AND the bullet holes when they jumped on me. Does the airframe really actually deform in a way that you can see the bullets entry angle?!?!?!).
Just think about it,
and keep up the good work,
_VR_Aristo "
2009/11/23
"Hello _VR_Aristo,
Thanks for the compliments, I am glad you like the aircrafts!
About the differences in performance, you are right: the MiG-15 as it is right now (used with Unifed Installer 1.2) is currently too good in some areas. I wasn't involved in the Flight Model development of the Sabre nor the MiG-15, however they have been reviewed, tweaked, and improved considerably for the next version.
This is what the author of the soon-to-come Flightmodels had to say about them:
Update - Quite Lengthy But Be Patient, in response to other posts in another area regarding flaws
Firstly Hello, I have been dying to post this update for some time now, talk of how accurate the FMs are not entirely true due to recent findings, fist note
Super Sonic fighters are fighters that fly in level flight above Mach 1.2, The F-86 us not really a true supersonic fighter, It spends most of its time in transonic flight and cannot reach Mach 1 under its own engine power only in a shallow dive and also easier at higher alts doing the same.
The speed of sound or Mach as you know is different at all altitudes and is measured in TAS, therefore you will appear to reach mach at lower IAS speeds at higher alt. the use of TAS now is important as is the need for a mach gauge. Descriptions of pilot reports can be mirrored in 1:1 human combat.
The original FMs that you guys are flying that have been reported as realistic, at the time of creation they appeared so however, last month I was able to load these aircraft into IL-2 Compare and I noticed straight away the issues. The original FMs were done mainly by Hunin and additional help my self with detail and facts. Testing, pre release FM and other tweaks currently in the FMs Howlin, this was a long time ago to think back and I am certain that each of us had a fair share of work into the original FM (no offense intended at any one mentioned or not mentioned). Since then I have spent many hours in very little days correcting these. I have extensively researched these and have built a very large library of details. The FMs have currently been completely redone by myself with testing by certain friends. My notes on the current FMs and problems are:
o Currently the climb rate of MiG-15Bis is closer to that of a MiG-17 (65m/s), This should be 50m/s based on the earlier 1949 April/July variant, this has been corrected however it is 53.5m/s close enough, I will explain why this compromise later.
o The roll rate of the MiG-15Bis out rolled that of the F-86, this is wrong. The F-86 should roll at 180 deg/s or 2 seconds for a complete roll at all speeds except high speed where it drops to around 3 seconds. The Mig-15 and Bis should roll at 90 degrees a second or roll in 4 seconds, at high speed the MiG-15 would lock up completely however the Bis had boosted ailerons and could manage 6 seconds, the Sabre now out rolls the MiG twice as fast at all speeds, Correct
o The Sabre if rolled continuously for too long (many fast rolls) at low speed will eventually start effects similar to that experienced on the MiG-21 "Auto Rotation", this does not mean it will auto roll, it means it will go into a weird barrel roll where the nose eventually pitches up into the centre causing an easily recoverable flat spin, this was not deliberate but a by product of reaching the limits of FMs which are designed for props, the game has limits with its FM I am not sure it can handle modern complex supersonic fighter flight models, as the performance curve cannot be as accurately defined as say a P-51 Prop, these FMs will do ok with in the current limits, any more and you would have to compromise on areas.
o The Sabre can and does out dive a MiG-15Bis however the MiG-15Bis will out dive the F-86 in an initial dive but the F-86 will accelerate past the MiG and has higher speed tolerance in a dive, it will not brake apart so easily, Correct
o The Sabre A-5 now climbs at its correct climb speed at 38ms, the F-86F-25E (Early Slatted bigger engine) and F-86F-25L (Late with the '6-3' which was retro fitted to earlier models to give it a fixed slat and larger root and wing area) 47m/s
o Power to weight ratio is very important now that you are flying jets just as much as you would think the turn is and climb, it tells you how well you accelerate and recover from a turn fight to gain advantage. The MiG-15Bis is more closer to RL than the late Sabres, it has a Power to Weight Ratio of 0.53 isntead of 0.54. Due to the limits of the FM with jets, (I cannot further discuss publicly). Certain things have had to be increased, such as weight, if I was to add any more weight to the MiG-15Bis it would affect the dive and other natural advantages the Sabre has over the MiG-15Bis.
o The Sabre A-5 has a power to weight ratio that is 37.5 same as real life and is quite accurate in performance
o The F-25 due to similar limitations related to the MiG-15Bis it has been refined and has a slightly higher thrust to weight and correct climb, this does even the odds in the climb much closer.
o The current original MiG-15Bis and Sabre A-5 fly far too fast at all heights, accelerate too well and black out easily. Corrected
o Peter D after a discussion between each other and extensive research on the high transonic speed effects that each plane suffered from, has created some very nice and interesting effects that are close to what the reports have said. The F-86A-5 like the MiG-15 locks up at high speed at high altitude this is due to it having a regular tail, roll was unaffected. The aircraft now loses not all but much control in pitch at high speed and high altitude which resulted in the tactic of USAF pilots dragging MiG pilots 25,000ft and lower, but as you get lower into the thicker air this compressibility is not such an issue and on the deck it is with out issue at all. The MiG-15Bis is much more nimble higher up and the Sabre A-5 can only fight it at low to mid speeds at low to mid heights, correct.
In level powered flight the F-86 will reach supersonic flight especially at higher altitudes. This has since been corrected, The Sabre will only ever reach Mach 1 in a shallow dive and its energy retention will allow it to hold that for longer periods of time. The buffet you experience is the high transonic affects by PeterD, it does not mean you will rip a wing but you can safely fly at mach 1.1 but at 1.2 at sea level you will lose control surfaces, buffet will become much more severe at the point of max speed. The MiG-15Bis will brake apart just above mach but as said below will not be able to achieve near mach in a controlled dive at all.
The F-86F-25E and L have the flying tail or I forget the name, where the elevators can still be operated but the complete horizontal stabilizer can pitch when needed at high speed, this reduces the compressibility issues greatly giving it much better pitch control at high alt and high speed, the aircraft is still no where near as stiff or light as it is at low alt but very stable at all speeds/heights and is highly maneuverable at higher alts.
The MiG-15Bis in real life would not break apart when it hit the sound barrier it can continue diving, however what happens is there is complete loss of roll and pitch control, complete lawn dart,